7 calves in 6 years? Think about this one...

[tsmaxx47]

this is basically what i do by leaving the bull in the same pasture year round. usually my cows complete a thirteen or fourteen month calf to calf cycle, so seven calfs in six years wouldn't happen in that case, obviously. when i start heading toward summer calves i will have to pull the bull; or most likely sell him and get another at the appropriate time.

so by leaving your bull in your cows are losing a month or two every yr instead of having a calf every 12 months on a controlled breeding season

I'm scratching my head on that one too.

Obviously in my part of the world year round calving doesn't work so great. Even with the dairy I shut down calving for a few of the coldest months. I can see where you fellas down south could make it work quite well. I still have to question whether you are making anymore money even with the extra calf. Your weaning weights would have to be quite variable and the uniformity of the calf crop would be relatively poor I would imagine. I think the two biggest things an individual can do to boost the price they receive when selling calves is to have a uniform group and sell at the proper time. We all know that historically prices are higher in the spring because there just aren't the numbers moving into feedlots as there is in the fall. How do you hit that target when you've got calving dates that change every year?

if i had enough to worry about, you're right, but at this stage i don't have the numbers to make this system (bull year round with herd) a problem. oddly enough, when i did have more cows calving, they were all done within about two weeks. when i get enough cows to count, i will start thinking more about calving seasons. right now at these prices i wish i had a whole bunch to sell...

 

[plumber_greg]

That would work Greg if EVERY cow came in and settled within thta 45day period which is unlikely
say the first cow that calves settles 21 days after calving and the cows in the middle of calving don't settle for 42 days after calving and then you have a few on the end that don't settle til 42 days after calving and then the last ones don't settle til 63 days after calving and then you have a couple that slip a calf 3 months after breeding and then rebreeds a month or so later
so in one yr you have went from 45 day calving season to roughly a 160 day calving season

This is why preg checking is so important especially in herds where the season is tight. If a cow who is a regular "johnny on the spot" rebreeder, and for some reason she did not rebreed on time, you know there is a problem. With guys who only feed hay couple months out of the year, not a problem. It's not so costly unless you are a real pasture manager. But for those of us who feed hay near or + 6 months of the year an open or late cow does not make the payments let alone cover the feed costs.
Any healthy cow should re breed on time, provided the nutrition and minerals are there. If not, then we need to look at the management issues surrounding why. One more note on picking breeding heifers....get the heifers who were calved out in the 45 day breeding period. Anything outside that magic number will more than likely be a late breeder.

Buyers here are picky. In a lot of 2 to 50 they seem to find the short tail, the one just not the same and pick it out. It's like they watched the Sesame Street song too much as a child..."Which one of these things doesn't belong..."

I agree RR but MOST people running bulls yr round are not gonna KNOW when each cow is bred or when she is gonna calve
I was not saying that in a closed season that the cows shouldn't be bred in a set period I was saying if you Don't have a set season this is some of the problems you will encounter no matter how productive you THINK your cows are
The o

That's what I was sayin' also. Just can't put my brain on the way cattle sell in Texas. One at a time. BHB I could buy fifty in a two week calving window in one bunch tomorrow if I wanted to. gs

 

[Angus Cowman]

[/quote] That's what I was sayin' also. Just can't put my brain on the way cattle sell in Texas. One at a time. BHB I could buy fifty in a two week calving window in one bunch tomorrow if I wanted to. gs[/quote]
sorry if I misunderstood your post

Me neither Greg, I would hate to go to a barn and try to fill pots buying 1 at a time
that goes back to my earlier thread awhile back about making calves more profitable by raising and selling in uniform groups

 

[cypressfarms]

I think how you sell your calves would affect the profitability of this too. Here large groups of uniform calves bring more money. I know from reading here that some areas all calves are sold as singles. That is not the way here and groups always bring more money than singles.

Around here the stockyard sells everything as singles; unless they are having a special sale (like a replacement heifer sale, when they may sell in lots of five or ten)

I'm still waiting for someone to convince me that by having the bull in year round you will not be able to tell which cows are more fertile. It's common sense to me; If you only put the bull in for a specific time, you never give those super fertile cows a chance to "move up".

One solution to calving year round is to sell calves at the same time (read spring here when the prices are higher). Since the stockyards here sell singles you'll do fine with the 450 pounder or the 700 pounder.

I'm glad this has spurred some discussion, though. Hopefully caused some pause to think. Where I'm located I would have no problem calving at any month. Grass for us is almost a year round thing (thank God!). LIke Caustic I only have to hay for 3 months give or take a few weeks. I'll be collecting data over the next several years on this. I'm intentionally gonna move cows up to have summer calves and see how they do. I do have a brangus based herd, however, so the heat may not be a problem for me as it would for others. By 2012 I'll be running a hereford bull on brangus cows to make super baldies. They should respond well regardless of the month they are born. The only disadvantage I could really see is when a cow calves early winter. Then she would be milking the hardest when I'm only giving hay. BY late winter they can graze ryegrass, but there are a couple of months when they go on hay alone. That may reduce the calves size by the moma having less milk available.

 

[Caustic Burno]

That's what I was sayin' also. Just can't put my brain on the way cattle sell in Texas. One at a time. BHB I could buy fifty in a two week calving window in one bunch tomorrow if I wanted to. gs[/quote]
sorry if I misunderstood your post

Me neither Greg, I would hate to go to a barn and try to fill pots buying 1 at a time
that goes back to my earlier thread awhile back about making calves more profitable by raising and selling in uniform groups[/quote]

Thats why there is no right or wrong way, we all get stuck in our own little world. There is huge enviromental difference on the board.

 

[plumber_greg]

If calf prices are higher in the spring, why not have a calving season and sell all 700 pounders? gs

 

[Angus Cowman]

I'm still waiting for someone to convince me that by having the bull in year round you will not be able to tell which cows are more fertile. It's common sense to me; If you only put the bull in for a specific time, you never give those super fertile cows a chance to "move up".
quote]
yes that cow can move up say she had her first calf in Oct and has move back to August( I calve August thru Oct) then she has moved up

All I can tell ya is do what works for you if you don't get anymore $$$ for having like groups of calves then I guess there is NO need for you to have a set calving season

in my area and the way I sell calves I get more money for having Like cattle and being able to fill pots with like cattle
when I ship calves there needs to be no more than 50lbs difference in them from top to bottom so that I can sell an average wt and load the pots so these cattle will finish at the same time at the feedlot

 

[Caustic Burno]

I think how you sell your calves would affect the profitability of this too. Here large groups of uniform calves bring more money. I know from reading here that some areas all calves are sold as singles. That is not the way here and groups always bring more money than singles.

Around here the stockyard sells everything as singles; unless they are having a special sale (like a replacement heifer sale, when they may sell in lots of five or ten)

I'm still waiting for someone to convince me that by having the bull in year round you will not be able to tell which cows are more fertile. It's common sense to me; If you only put the bull in for a specific time, you never give those super fertile cows a chance to "move up".

One solution to calving year round is to sell calves at the same time (read spring here when the prices are higher). Since the stockyards here sell singles you'll do fine with the 450 pounder or the 700 pounder.

I'm glad this has spurred some discussion, though. Hopefully caused some pause to think. Where I'm located I would have no problem calving at any month. Grass for us is almost a year round thing (thank God!). LIke Caustic I only have to hay for 3 months give or take a few weeks. I'll be collecting data over the next several years on this. I'm intentionally gonna move cows up to have summer calves and see how they do. I do have a brangus based herd, however, so the heat may not be a problem for me as it would for others. By 2012 I'll be running a hereford bull on brangus cows to make super baldies. They should respond well regardless of the month they are born. The only disadvantage I could really see is when a cow calves early winter. Then she would be milking the hardest when I'm only giving hay. BY late winter they can graze ryegrass, but there are a couple of months when they go on hay alone. That may reduce the calves size by the moma having less milk available.

Running a Brangus momma with a Hereford bull I don't think you will find a season that the calves out grow the other, I never have. We have cool, hot and hotter and my brangus have performed better than anything else. I have two Hereford girls that raise as good of calf and they are being flushed next summer with sexed semen.
Back to running the bull year around it is still as simple as keeping good records, and I am in Lasater school any cow that can't produce a calf every 12 months is a cull and is culled. As far as pricing goes fall are the lowest here and a lot of that has to do with you northern ranchers flooding the market. Boogie also touched on corn I can't imagine feeding a cow corn or out of a sack, that is a ticket to the poor house here. You would go broke here on a bovine that can't raise a calf on grass and grass only on poor quality grass.

 

[Angus Cowman]

color=#FF0000] I have two Hereford girls that raise as good of calf and they are being flushed next summer with sexed semen.[/color]quote]
heck on the last page you were selling everything but 1 old cow next week and getting out of the business now your flushing cows and doing embryo transfer

 

[backhoeboogie]

Thats why there is no right or wrong way, we all get stuck in our own little world. There is huge enviromental difference on the board.

Folks probably don't realize the environmental difference between between you and I. You should share some of that rain with me. You can keep the humidity tho

There has been some decent discussion in this thread. I truly don't have any arguments either way. Mostly just explaining how and why things work for me.

 

[Caustic Burno]

color=#FF0000] I have two Hereford girls that raise as good of calf and they are being flushed next summer with sexed semen.[/color]quote]
heck on the last page you were selling everything but 1 old cow next week and getting out of the business now your flushing cows and doing embryo transfer

Yep been kinda of depressed my old neighbor and hay partner's health got him, went in for a routine test and they messed him up. I baled his and my hay and he upkept all the equipment been working well for nearly twenty years. I owned the equipment and we cut and baled together shared the fertilizer cost, he has better hay fields than I do. It has been like I lost my right arm. Just been wearing on my mind.

 

[cypressfarms]

All I can tell ya is do what works for you if you don't get anymore $$$ for having like groups of calves then I guess there is NO need for you to have a set calving season

when I ship calves there needs to be no more than 50lbs difference in them from top to bottom

AC,

Another thing with me is that now I'm selling beef to nursing homes I have a need for year round calves to butcher. I still have calves left over, though, even after the nursing homes are supplied. Those will go to the stockyard. I've learned the hard way on that one. Send all of the "fancy" calves to the stockyard, and feed out the "ugly" ones. Ugly gain just as good, but "fancy" bring better prices in the ring.

If all of my calves had to be within 50 pounds, I'd have a serious problem.

Someone had mentioned buying a lot/group of 50 calves. There are always a group (maybe 6-10) of order buyers at each sale. They sit through the whole aution, however long it takes, and buy what they need - one calf by one. These people will also buy a group of like calves for you as well (they do charge a fee). The good thing about using these guys is that they have serious connections in the business, and they "know" cattle better than most. I've used on ebefore to buy a group of heifers. I was not disappointed! The small fee I paid to him was long forgotten after the heifers turned into great producing cows. I always go up and say "hi" to the buyers before the auction, or get the aution manager to introduce me to the ones I don't know. It never hurts to have another friend/connection.

At this point I'm favoring an all year round season, and selling the "extra" calves in the spring/early summer to take advantage of the price premium. Everyone hates summer calves, but I assume that a summer calf will feed out just like any other calf. Summer can be hard on cattle for sure, but the genetic potential of that calf to gain weight should be the same whether he was born in August or March. Clear as mud?

 

[novaman]

Summer can be hard on cattle for sure, but the genetic potential of that calf to gain weight should be the same whether he was born in August or March. Clear as mud?

Genetic potential has nothing to do with when the calf is born. Genetic potential is established in the womb based on how the gene selection takes place.

 

[TexasBred]

Summer can be hard on cattle for sure, but the genetic potential of that calf to gain weight should be the same whether he was born in August or March. Clear as mud?

Genetic potential has nothing to do with when the calf is born. Genetic potential is established in the womb based on how the gene selection takes place.

The keyword is "Potential". Definitely it's there but in this area July/August calves just do not seem to perform up to "potential". For one thing what mama has to eat doesn't contain a lot of nutrition to produce milk and is in a constant negative energy balance.

 

[backhoeboogie]

Greg, I forgot to mention neighboring pastures who run bulls year round. There are several. I have already had heifers bred to young by a neighbor's angus bull. Another neighbor behind me has a bull that he cannot catch to haul off. He has penned him only to have him bust out of the coral before he could get him loaded. That bull has been on atleast a dozen different places and wrecked more fence than anyone cares to talk about. If I were to pull my bull, my cows would be getting bred by animals I don't want them bred to. A case in point is the heifers being bred young by the angus bull; "been there done that" (and I hate that metaphor).

 

[dun]

Greg, I forgot to mention neighboring pastures who run bulls year round. There are several. I have already had heifers bred to young by a neighbor's angus bull. Another neighbor behind me has a bull that he cannot catch to haul off. He has penned him only to have him bust out of the coral before he could get him loaded. That bull has been on atleast a dozen different places and wrecked more fence than anyone cares to talk about. If I were to pull my bull, my cows would be getting bred by animals I don't want them bred to. A case in point is the heifers being bred young by the angus bull; "been there done that" (and I hate that metaphor).

I know of a couple that have a couple of dozen cows that calve regularly every year and they've never owned a bull (or used AI). Their fences are junk and either the girls go visiting the neighbors or the neighbors bull some over to socialize.

 

[cypressfarms]

Summer can be hard on cattle for sure, but the genetic potential of that calf to gain weight should be the same whether he was born in August or March. Clear as mud?

Genetic potential has nothing to do with when the calf is born. Genetic potential is established in the womb based on how the gene selection takes place.

Uh Yeah nova, that's obvious. Outside contibuting factors would cause a summer calf to not perform like a spring one - that was the point I was trying to make.

 

[donnaIL]

The cow in the first picture we bought at a sale barn for a cow that had lost twins 05/18/04, she was a baby and the unbilical cord was dried but still attached. She has has had 6 calves in 4.5 years -- no twins--single births 5/19/06, 4/27/07, 3/29/08, 1/26/09, 12/17/09 and the picture is with her 6th calf born on 10/26/10. She only has had 1 bull calf which we butchered last month. We have retained her first heifers..and don't know about this one.

The second picture is of her first 2 heifer calves I retained..The red white faced cow (5/19/06) seems to be keeping up the good work--she has had 4 calves in 2 years 6.5 months-- 5/27/08, 3/28/09, 2/17/10 and 12/18/10. So far she has had all heifers! We have sold 2 of her heifers at the sale barn as yearlings and made $80-$85 cwt.. we sold last one after weaning and she weighted est 630..This cows calves have been super.

The chocolate WF (4/27/07) is also showing the trend, with her 3rd calf in the picture, calving 2/22/09, 2/1/10 and 12/19/10. 2 bull calves and this one a heifer.

Our cows calf every year..but these seem to be producing a little better. I wonder how many she will have in 7 years!

 

[novaman]

The cow in the first picture we bought at a sale barn for a cow that had lost twins 05/18/04, she was a baby and the unbilical cord was dried but still attached. She has has had 6 calves in 4.5 years -- no twins--single births 5/19/06, 4/27/07, 3/29/08, 1/26/09, 12/17/09 and the picture is with her 6th calf born on 10/26/10. She only has had 1 bull calf which we butchered last month. We have retained her first heifers..and don't know about this one.

The second picture is of her first 2 heifer calves I retained..The red white faced cow (5/19/06) seems to be keeping up the good work--she has had 4 calves in 2 years 6.5 months-- 5/27/08, 3/28/09, 2/17/10 and 12/18/10. So far she has had all heifers! We have sold 2 of her heifers at the sale barn as yearlings and made $80-$85 cwt.. we sold last one after weaning and she weighted est 630..This cows calves have been super.

The chocolate WF (4/27/07) is also showing the trend, with her 3rd calf in the picture, calving 2/22/09, 2/1/10 and 12/19/10. 2 bull calves and this one a heifer.

Our cows calf every year..but these seem to be producing a little better. I wonder how many she will have in 7 years!

It sounds like you have some good genetics there. Must have some calving ease there as well. It seems if a cow can have a calf easily she will recover to rebreed much quicker. If we all calved year round it is likely we would find at least a few in every herd that would move up just like you are seeing. It sounds great getting 6 calves in the span of 54 months. I still see a problem with marketing those cattle though. I think it would be nearly impossible to get a group of calves that would be consistent enough to sell as a group. I would be interested in seeing some solid numbers that would make these 6 calves worth more than 4 calves in a set calving season. I just have to think that you will be taking significantly less money per head by selling in small group or even individually. If you retain them for any amount of time to make a group you would have added expense in feed,etc. Just my thoughts. Maybe some of you can make it work.

 

[cypressfarms]

I think Donna's post was great. It shows one of her cows, and their offspring on their way to being very productive. She would have never known that if she only had a bull with the cow for 60 days out of every year. Since she obviously has the bull year round, she has figured out that this cow (and her offspring) are more fertile than the average cow.

This is exactly what I had in mind from the beginning of the thread! Thanks Donna!

I know it's hard, but you folks up north have to shut down the part of your brain that's screaming "uniform size!". Down here each calf that walks into the ring does it by himself/herself, and each calf is based on it's merits. The usual weight sliding scale applies - lighter calves bring more per pound than heavier. So regardless of the time of year, you can sell 300, 400, 500, 600, 700 pound calves and not have to worry about getting docked for being too small or too big. We have enough to get docked on already (can you say eared steer). Because of this I usually sell in July or August to take advantage of the price before the fall "fall" (price drop), regardless of the size of the calf.

I had a feeling there was a "Donna" cow out there somewhere.