7 calves in 6 years? Think about this one...

[cypressfarms]

Those of you who've seen me post over the years know that many times I post asking "what if" questions. Please follow the logic below, and give your honest opinion...

O.k., we all know most cows have a gestation cycle of 283 days. Sure some are shorter and some are longer, but for the sake of argument let's say that all are 283 days. In addition we also know that a cow needs time for her reproductive tract to "heal" before she will begin to cycle and can again become pregnant. The overwhelming school of thought (I'm not judging here) is that the best way is to put the bulls in with the cows for a short certain period of time. There are many reasons to support this. Two of the bigger have always been a more uniform calf crop and knowing which cows were not fertile enough, thus culling them.

Here's where I'm going to interject some hairbrain stuff. I love being the "devil's advocate", maybe it's the natural debator in me coming out. So here goes:

Keeping a bull all year round will actually show the producer which of his cows is really the most fertile. If all cows are exposed to a bull for a certain time, then they could not possibly become pregnant before this time. However, if the bull was with the cows year round, the producer would notice the most fertile cows moving their calving date up every year. (I've had some move up large amounts in just a couple of years). So with the assumption that you have a cow that is "super fertile" and she constantly moves her date up, could the following be possible?

"Super fertile" cow is bred as a heifer on Jan 1 of year 1. Oct 10 of year 1 she would calve. Let's assume that mrs. super fertile takes a month for her reproductive tract to recover and can rebreed one month from calf birth. This would mean that s.f.w. (super fertile cow) would rebreed Nov 10
of year 1. Year 2 on August 19th she would have her 2nd calf. Again one month later, on September 19th the year round bull would rebreed her and she would have her 3rd calf June 28th of year 3. Again one month of recovery would mean that she rebreeds July 28 to calve again May 6 of year 4. So up to now our sfc has had 4 calves in 4 years. June 6th she rebreeds in year 4 and calves March 15 of year 5, with her 5th calf. Again one month later she rebreeds April 15 of year 5 to calve January 22 of year 6 with her 6th calf. Again one month later she rebreeds Feb 22; low and behold she has her 7th calf Dec 1 in her 6th calendar year of production.
We've just made a whole year cycle in 6 years. Does that mean that a cow can actually have 7 calves in 6 calendar years. I suppose that one really fertile cow could. The odds would be against it. Somewhere along the way Murphy's law would catch up and you'd lose a few weeks here or there. I find it intersting to ponder though.

I know, this would mean having dreaded "summer claves", and our friends in the far north probably could not do this due to inclement weather. But what about down in the deep south?

Opinions please!

 

[Santas and Duhram Reds]

If you did this, I would think you would also be producing calves that would not grow to their full potential.

 

[kenny thomas]

If this cow had all heifers, you kept them all, and they were just as fertile, they had all heifers that were just as fertile, how many head would carry this cows genetics in 7 years. :help:

 

[Isomade]

The two things that come to mind cypress are #1 longevity, could this shorten her productive years by a year or two due to wear and tear? And #2 what will be the net of the overall calves? Historically,(until this year there has been an average if 15 cents/lb premium for spring sold calves versus fall sold calves. If these two things hold true would you really come out ahead? If your cow produces 12 calves in 10 years, and mine produces 12 calves in 12 years, you average 1.05/lb ( you will have some sell in spring) and I average 1.15, your 550lb calves $577.50 mine average 632.50. You sell $6930 and I sell $7590 worth. That is only $660 difference. But you have to replace a cow 2 years sooner. I struggle with this question constantly. I have no answer. Like you I am always running numbers. Currently I pull the bulls. My dad thinks pulling his bulls is ludicrous. I just don't know.

 

[jedstivers]

We have some women here that do that.

 

[upfrombottom]

We have some women here that do that.

Except they don't take a month off.

 

[backhoeboogie]

It seems the healthiest cows are the ones who breed back the soonest. Calves seem to be the better calves in the pasture too.

I did have one of the better ones have a backwards calf this year. Had to pull that calf and he lived two weeks. He was never quite right. Don't know if I did not get there soon enough or what. This was the first problem calf and her 6th.

Overall it was a great year on calf mortality.

 

[KNERSIE]

In theory it works that way, in reality you're going to run short on grass sooner rather than later causing cows with suckling calves to lose so much condition so that they take a reproductive break. In the years that I've run bulls 365 it was my observation that cows will back up by a month or so for 2 or 3 years before taking a break and calve 14-15 months after the last calf and the cycle starts again.

If you are seriously understocked you can manage it so that it counts in your favour especially if you run enough numbers to market groups of lightweight weaners and selling the calves off the cow at 4-5 months old. You'll also need a pretty decent set of cows to make the young calves pay for you.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Cypress my cows have been on a ten or eleven month calving cycle forever. I figure that I get two to three more calves over ther productive life. Cypress I had thirty momma cows that were still producing on that schedule last spring and most were 16 years old or better. Cow prices went to the moon today there are ten momma cows in a empty pasture, half of the ten left are teenagers. I will start rebuying after January, I just couldn't turn down 800 to 900 dollars on those cows. One of the girls I hauled was a fifteen year old with cancer eye and she brought over 800 dollars.

 

[Caustic Burno]

In theory it works that way, in reality you're going to run short on grass sooner rather than later causing cows with suckling calves to lose so much condition so that they take a reproductive break. In the years that I've run bulls 365 it was my observation that cows will back up by a month or so for 2 or 3 years before taking a break and calve 14-15 months after the last calf and the cycle starts again.

If you are seriously understocked you can manage it so that it counts in your favour especially if you run enough numbers to market groups of lightweight weaners and selling the calves off the cow at 4-5 months old. You'll also need a pretty decent set of cows to make the young calves pay for you.

Where Cypress and I live grass is not a problem unless you consider Bahia a problem.

 

[TexasBred]

We have some women here that do that.

Yeah but it all depends on whether or not they have a private or semi-private room in the hospital. :nod:

 

[KNERSIE]

In theory it works that way, in reality you're going to run short on grass sooner rather than later causing cows with suckling calves to lose so much condition so that they take a reproductive break. In the years that I've run bulls 365 it was my observation that cows will back up by a month or so for 2 or 3 years before taking a break and calve 14-15 months after the last calf and the cycle starts again.

If you are seriously understocked you can manage it so that it counts in your favour especially if you run enough numbers to market groups of lightweight weaners and selling the calves off the cow at 4-5 months old. You'll also need a pretty decent set of cows to make the young calves pay for you.

Where Cypress and I live grass is not a problem unless you consider Bahia a problem.

I consider no grass a problem, as long as there is something to eat its not a problem in my book, you just need the right cows. When I grow up I also want to move to a place where grass is never a problem.

 

[dun]

When I grow up I also want to move to a place where grass is never a problem.

That's easy. Move to the city and don;t raise cows. That's the only way I know of so that grass is never a problem

 

[Santas and Duhram Reds]

When I grow up I also want to move to a place where grass is never a problem.

That's easy. Move to the city and don;t raise cows. That's the only way I know of so that grass is never a problem

:lol:
:nod:

 

[cypressfarms]

If this cow had all heifers, you kept them all, and they were just as fertile, they had all heifers that were just as fertile, how many head would carry this cows genetics in 7 years. :help:

I like this point of view Kenny. Maybe by the 7th year the gestation length would be 263 days... Who knows.....

 

[rockridgecattle]

I think more follow through on this line of thinking would be prudent. The follow through should include the wean weights of the calves. This would be contingent on finding two cows with simillar backgrounds and lineage and bull breeding to see the end result in total wean weight and yearly price to see which comes out ahead. As well, the longevity of the cow and would the cow which has the extra calf be able to handle difficult years like drought or flooding

 

[tsmaxx47]

this is basically what i do by leaving the bull in the same pasture year round. usually my cows complete a thirteen or fourteen month calf to calf cycle, so seven calfs in six years wouldn't happen in that case, obviously. when i start heading toward summer calves i will have to pull the bull; or most likely sell him and get another at the appropriate time.

 

[Angus Cowman]

this is basically what i do by leaving the bull in the same pasture year round. usually my cows complete a thirteen or fourteen month calf to calf cycle, so seven calfs in six years wouldn't happen in that case, obviously. when i start heading toward summer calves i will have to pull the bull; or most likely sell him and get another at the appropriate time.

so by leaving your bull in your cows are losing a month or two every yr instead of having a calf every 12 months on a controlled breeding season

 

[Caustic Burno]

I think more follow through on this line of thinking would be prudent. The follow through should include the wean weights of the calves. This would be contingent on finding two cows with simillar backgrounds and lineage and bull breeding to see the end result in total wean weight and yearly price to see which comes out ahead. As well, the longevity of the cow and would the cow which has the extra calf be able to handle difficult years like drought or flooding

Your right about picking the right cow here it needs at least an 1/8th Brimmer prefer 3/8.
Finding a cow that will put weight on a calf in this heat and humidity is the trick and she will have some Brimmer in her. Again you are correct in finding the most efficent terminal bull to put on this set of cows. There is really no good reason here in this enviroment to pull the bull, you really only have to worry about hay Dec. through Feb.
Heat is the big issue I have seen many breeds here through the years and they come and go, because they can't put the pounds on the calf in this heat except the queen of the gulf coast and that is a Brimmer cross momma.
Different cattle for different enviroments, you run a straight bred Angus or Hereford through the sale ring and you are going to get your feelings hurt, cause when that Brangus or Tiger come through they are going to out sale you by the hundreds of dollars.

 

[novaman]

this is basically what i do by leaving the bull in the same pasture year round. usually my cows complete a thirteen or fourteen month calf to calf cycle, so seven calfs in six years wouldn't happen in that case, obviously. when i start heading toward summer calves i will have to pull the bull; or most likely sell him and get another at the appropriate time.

so by leaving your bull in your cows are losing a month or two every yr instead of having a calf every 12 months on a controlled breeding season

I'm scratching my head on that one too.

Obviously in my part of the world year round calving doesn't work so great. Even with the dairy I shut down calving for a few of the coldest months. I can see where you fellas down south could make it work quite well. I still have to question whether you are making anymore money even with the extra calf. Your weaning weights would have to be quite variable and the uniformity of the calf crop would be relatively poor I would imagine. I think the two biggest things an individual can do to boost the price they receive when selling calves is to have a uniform group and sell at the proper time. We all know that historically prices are higher in the spring because there just aren't the numbers moving into feedlots as there is in the fall. How do you hit that target when you've got calving dates that change every year?