3rd Time is NOT a Charm

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Which is precisely why I have my replacement/retained heifers pelvic measured. Vet was out this week to BANGS, measure, calfhood shots & magnets and threw me a curveball. My minimum goal is 150 and one of my faves measured a pitiful 138; theoretically, she couldn't even have a 60 lb. calf unassisted.

What went wrong? Her dam measured a whopping 182 and she was sired by a +16 calving ease bull. Willy was this heifers sire and he's +9 CED. She comes from a proven lineage: her grandma is my oldest cow (just turned 13) and I've kept all her heifers and 2 other granddaughters. Sometimes there's just no rhyme or reason, but this is the third time a heifer didn't make the cut and essentially the same scenario. Could she calve unassisted? Possible but not likely because my heifers average 70-75 lb. calves. And why take the risk?

Big butts don't always mean big pelvic measurements! First pic, she's in the middle. Heifer on the left measured 162.5, the one on the right was 156.25. Second pic, the heifer on the left measured an impressive 182.
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Likely a higher calving ease direct bull will sire smaller calves so theoretically he will also sire smaller pelvises in his daughters. You want to use calving ease maternal for larger pelvic measurements theoretically. Not sure all the numbers are right when comparing calving ease sires though.
 
Yep, what WB said. CEM is the epd to predict calving ease in daughters. In theory, should be antagonistic to CE. But not always. There will always be outliers in matings. Those are where you can make positive jumps in performance, but also negative ones.
 
Which is precisely why I have my replacement/retained heifers pelvic measured. Vet was out this week to BANGS, measure, calfhood shots & magnets and threw me a curveball. My minimum goal is 150 and one of my faves measured a pitiful 138; theoretically, she couldn't even have a 60 lb. calf unassisted.

What went wrong? Her dam measured a whopping 182 and she was sired by a +16 calving ease bull. Willy was this heifers sire and he's +9 CED. She comes from a proven lineage: her grandma is my oldest cow (just turned 13) and I've kept all her heifers and 2 other granddaughters. Sometimes there's just no rhyme or reason, but this is the third time a heifer didn't make the cut and essentially the same scenario. Could she calve unassisted? Possible but not likely because my heifers average 70-75 lb. calves. And why take the risk?

Big butts don't always mean big pelvic measurements! First pic, she's in the middle. Heifer on the left measured 162.5, the one on the right was 156.25. Second pic, the heifer on the left measured an impressive 182.
View attachment 26142
View attachment 26143
I picked up three nice angus heifers at a sale one time, two with obvious big hips and one with very small hips from appearances. The little hipped heifer birthed a nice, moderately sized calf with no assist, and one of the others had a dead calf. The other heifer had one with the head presenting and no feet so assisted. I would have sworn the heifer with the tiny hips would need help and if she wasn't so cheap I would have passed on her.

When I was selling replacement heifers I bred my cows to maternal bulls with high weaning weight EPDs. I avoided calving ease and BW bulls. CE and BW are for first calf heifers and I considered the calves they produced as terminal.
 
Interesting!

So, will she measure better in a few months?
Will she just need bred at a later time?

I realize you have your program, and I assume she will be sold because of this.
 
So, will she measure better in a few months?
My heifers are measured at 11 months instead of the "standard" 12 months, turned out at 15 months to calve at 24. Give or take. Yes, maybe a little wiggle room if I held her back and had her measured again, turned her out later. But that defeats my management system. All retained heifers are born within the first few weeks of the calving season from proven lineages, so they're uniform in age, size, development. In a perfect world, they'd also calve around the same time, breed back, etc.

So, she'll take a trailer ride. Either to the sale barn or private treaty to a friend that finishes calves and sells by half or whole. Kinda sad cuz she's super sweet and cute as a button.
1676158557649.jpeg
 
Yep, what WB said. CEM is the epd to predict calving ease in daughters. In theory, should be antagonistic to CE. But not always. There will always be outliers in matings. Those are where you can make positive jumps in performance, but also negative ones.
Okay, I stand corrected on his CED's. What I have is old, so just looked him up and his CED is +11, CEM is +9.

Edit to add: Willy also sired Ore Ida (her mama is Spud;)) and she measured 156.25. Spud was sired by Dick & she measured 150. Dick was CED & CEM +9. I'm confused!
 
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I have no dog under this tree but I have not pulled a calf in well over 20 years. Yes I know my luck could change in the next 60 days.
To the extent possible I try to buy bulls from cows 6 years or older. As I have stated before I only keep heifers born in the 1st calving cycle.
If a cow has a calf in the 2nd cycle I may keep her but she will never be selected for replacement purposes. There is no 3rd cycle.
I try to select bulls with low birth and weaning weights and above average year weight. Low milk EPD is also a prerequisite.
A big dead calf has a terrible weaning weight and to what avail is 550 weaning weight if 200 of those pounds are off the mother and her
BC is contributing to the reason she is going to calf a month later next year? On vets, Yes, Use them when you need them. I had some
pneumonia apparently blew in last year and we caught it in time with some of them running 106-7 degree temperatures. I am most
grateful but I don't need to pay a vet to stand behind a heifer to tell my she can have a calf or no.

On a personal note, I have used and enjoyed these pages for a couple of years or more and appreciate and respect a considerable
number the good folks I have had the pleasure of engaging ideas whether I agreed in totality or not.
It has come to the point that CT is so inundated with advertising coming across my screen that I find it most annoying.
I am a bit like Call in that regard in that "I hate rude behavior in a man''

I will probably make some adjustments. LVR
 
I have no dog under this tree but I have not pulled a calf in well over 20 years. Yes I know my luck could change in the next 60 days.
To the extent possible I try to buy bulls from cows 6 years or older. As I have stated before I only keep heifers born in the 1st calving cycle.
If a cow has a calf in the 2nd cycle I may keep her but she will never be selected for replacement purposes. There is no 3rd cycle.
I try to select bulls with low birth and weaning weights and above average year weight. Low milk EPD is also a prerequisite.
A big dead calf has a terrible weaning weight and to what avail is 550 weaning weight if 200 of those pounds are off the mother and her
BC is contributing to the reason she is going to calf a month later next year? On vets, Yes, Use them when you need them. I had some
pneumonia apparently blew in last year and we caught it in time with some of them running 106-7 degree temperatures. I am most
grateful but I don't need to pay a vet to stand behind a heifer to tell my she can have a calf or no.

On a personal note, I have used and enjoyed these pages for a couple of years or more and appreciate and respect a considerable
number the good folks I have had the pleasure of engaging ideas whether I agreed in totality or not.
It has come to the point that CT is so inundated with advertising coming across my screen that I find it most annoying.
I am a bit like Call in that regard in that "I hate rude behavior in a man''

I will probably make some adjustments. LVR
Turn off your advertisements if they bug you.

As far as weaning weights... I never kept cows that couldn't wean a 600 pound calf and stay in good condition. Maybe that's pasture management or environment because I don't know where you are. I like your retention from first calving cycle. That's probably related to one of the reasons I used older cows for replacements. Why choose bulls from 6+ year old cows? Because they are proven breeders?
 
My heifers are measured at 11 months instead of the "standard" 12 months, turned out at 15 months to calve at 24. Give or take. Yes, maybe a little wiggle room if I held her back and had her measured again, turned her out later. But that defeats my management system. All retained heifers are born within the first few weeks of the calving season from proven lineages, so they're uniform in age, size, development. In a perfect world, they'd also calve around the same time, breed back, etc.

So, she'll take a trailer ride. Either to the sale barn or private treaty to a friend that finishes calves and sells by half or whole. Kinda sad cuz she's super sweet and cute as a button.
View attachment 26155
Maybe the vet made an error, measure her again.
 
TC, I think if you used bulls with just a slightly higher birth epd your pelvic measurements would increase on your heifer calves. I don't like claves much over 100 lbs but I think most all of us are leaving money on the table if we aim too low. It's good that you have set standards for your replacement females and you are right to have a hard line that they must reach to make the cut.
 
Do you ever say screw it "I'm breeding this one"? Or is it a hard line in the sand?
I will make exceptions, but not that far off. My management is getting more stringent, primarily because it's usually just me. I even sold a fave cow last weaning because while she had the best temperament and raised a huge calf, she was all over the place breeding back and half the time didn't settle until the 3rd try. If I wouldn't keep a heifer from her, why do I still have her? Plus, the epic drought.
 
TC, I think if you used bulls with just a slightly higher birth epd your pelvic measurements would increase on your heifer calves. I don't like claves much over 100 lbs but I think most all of us are leaving money on the table if we aim too low. It's good that you have set standards for your replacement females and you are right to have a hard line that they must reach to make the cut.
Woody sired the heifer that measured 182 and his CED is +7, CEM +12. She was a solid 100 lbs. at birth (but I used a birth weight tape) and her dam was my 40 lb. preemie that couldn't even walk for 10 days (avatar pic). She's a stout little girl!
1676215067507.jpeg
 
I will make exceptions, but not that far off. My management is getting more stringent, primarily because it's usually just me. I even sold a fave cow last weaning because while she had the best temperament and raised a huge calf, she was all over the place breeding back and half the time didn't settle until the 3rd try. If I wouldn't keep a heifer from her, why do I still have her? Plus, the epic drought.
Third strikes are for baseball not cattle. It always gives me a good feeling to think that may be part of my cow going into the stands
at Yankee Stadium! Hit by a Yankee of course!
 
If a cow has a calf in the 2nd cycle . I may keep her but she will never be selected for replacement purposes There is no 3rd cycle.

Why do you keep her if not for replacement?
To sell?
Do you sell her as a replacement heifer or just 'where ever the wind blows' her at sale?
 

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