3070; 8020; 4011

[TB-Herefords]

If you were to compare these three Herefords bulls what would you say about them? I have a really good Dominator son that is a coming two year old. He has been throwin 70 lbs calves out of the heifers. Havn't had any out of the cows yet; but soon to come. I have a few Domino 3070 A.I. calves on the ground right now and I have to say they are some of the thickest calves I have seen. I am really impressed w/ the calves from 3070. Ofcourse I read a lot on here about 8020. Domino 4011 has got my attention. Mostly because I have a heifer out of him that I am really impressed with. She has a really moderate size to her and calvin ease delux, really nice bag, pigmented eyes (calf too), and great attitude. Of course there is another half of that pedigree to contribute to her. I'm lookin to keep quite moderate cattle. Like a four an half to five an half frame. Really not impressed with the six and seven frame cattle. For reasons disscussed many time over and over and over on this forum. Would any of these bulls keep me down under that six frame? I only know of theses bull what is told to me and what I read. I only have a few 3070 offspring and they were born few days ago.

Thanks

 

[HerefordSire]

Do you have some links we can easily view the AHA information?

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

I have only seen pics of 8020. I know that it is going to be hard to find the proven numbers to match 8020. There is data on hundreds of offspring. I know that his daughters are highly regarded.

 

[Herefords.US]

I'm guessing that 4011 is "Ben" - C 212 Domino 4011 ET. Really nice bull that's throwing some good calves and he already has some impressive proven EPDs. I'm interested in seeing how his daughters do in production.

I'm still trying to figure out who 3070 is.

George

 

[TB-Herefords]

http://www.hereford.com/hereford/4011.htm Big Ben

Messed up on 3070 its was talkin 3027 http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-b...3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5A5D5C27582124222D&9=505E tomany numbers in my head

Couldn't get 8020 up but if you don't know him dont worry.

Maybe this will work. I think Aaron seams to know a lot about 8020 If i recall right.
Also there is a CL 1 domino 206 which claims to be moderate bull; but i've seen the Holden cows in person and there is no moderate about them. I have 5212 offspring (5212 son of 206) and they arn't moderate.

 

[Herefords.US]

I figure most everyone knows 8020 but here's a link:

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-b...24222559222024&9=5F505C&11=51505E&12=43515D50

Ben:

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-b...5C272325222E25&9=5F505C&11=51505E&12=43425958

As far as "moderate" goes, I think ALL these bulls would be on the high side of your definition of moderate, i.e. frame size 4.5 to 5.5.

8020 would be a good choice for anyone wanting a good set of brood cows.

Ben, himself, looks very promising. I'm a fan of his dam, not so much of his sire.

I don't know much about 3027. I like his sire, but the initial production performance of daughters of 3027 would concern me. Personally, I wouldn't use him until I saw that number improve a good bit.

George

 

[HerefordSire]

If you were to compare these three Herefords bulls what would you say about them? I have a really good Dominator son that is a coming two year old. He has been throwin 70 lbs calves out of the heifers. Havn't had any out of the cows yet; but soon to come. I have a few Domino 3070 A.I. calves on the ground right now and I have to say they are some of the thickest calves I have seen. I am really impressed w/ the calves from 3070. Ofcourse I read a lot on here about 8020. Domino 4011 has got my attention. Mostly because I have a heifer out of him that I am really impressed with. She has a really moderate size to her and calvin ease delux, really nice bag, pigmented eyes (calf too), and great attitude. Of course there is another half of that pedigree to contribute to her. I'm lookin to keep quite moderate cattle. Like a four an half to five an half frame. Really not impressed with the six and seven frame cattle. For reasons disscussed many time over and over and over on this forum. Would any of these bulls keep me down under that six frame? I only know of theses bull what is told to me and what I read. I only have a few 3070 offspring and they were born few days ago.

Thanks

4011: Why are you questioning yourself if you are 'really impressed' with the one you have? Is the heifer's dam a smaller frame and you have larger framed cows you want to try 4011 on?

Ben is one of the most unique bulls in the breed because of his extreme volume, body depth and muscle. *Ben is a true curve bender bull with BW and YW EPDs in the top 10percent of the breed. *He is also considered a trait leader for SC, REA, BMI$, CEZ$, BII$ and CHB$. *Ben has been used extensively on heifers at W4 Ranch with great success. *He is also one of the few Elite Tender Hereford sires based on GeneSTAR testing."

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

Bear in mind that the pic of 8020 was probably taken when he was at least nine or ten. I know he was still going at 13. Do any of you know just how old he lasted? 8020 is a good combo of reasonable BW, good milking ability, and above average carcass in an extremely high accuracy package.

 

[TB-Herefords]

I've seen the bulls, and studied them very well 3027 is getting a ton of use. Herfordsire I think you just repeated the advertisment for 4011; but thats okay. I only have one heifer out of him. So to say I want to move his way off one heifer might put me in a bad spot. I think right now I will just push 3027 way. I have a few calves out of him n I like so far. Any one know if they sell semen on CSU Ram Dominator 4203. I looked on herfnet and they dont advertise it; but at one time I thought they did? Biggest problem is the different opinons on moderate.

As far as "moderate" goes, I think ALL these bulls would be on the high side of your definition of moderate, i.e. frame size 4.5 to 5.5.

Some say moderate and you look up the frame size its a 6 or better. Those 6 frame animals usually mature a little bigger than what I call moderate. Maybe the only way to know moderate is to see it not frame it.

 

[HerefordSire]

Semen = $20....in second link, look more than halfway down the page.

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 3&9=5B505B

CSU Ram Dominator 4203, (horned) (reg 42531422) "RAM" sired by the Breeds #1 Balance Trait Sire CJHL1 Domino 552. He is 552's Highest valued son. You've heard all about this package. Combining 552's Birth, yearling, milk and REA with Jet Domino that adds marbling. Awesome disposition, color, hair and fertility. RAM just finished testing in the National Reference Sire Evaluation Program where he proved himself as a high accuracy reference sire trait leader for calving ease, birth Wt, marbling and the Profit Indexes for Balding Material, Brahman Influence and calving ease.

This makes Ram and his offspring, possibly the best choice you can have confidence in breeding heifers and creating that all-important F1 Black or Red Baldy! Come see him and is 1st big offering of uniform sons (Pooled and Horned). You'll be hearing about RAM for a long time – He is truly "Right for the Industry"! Owned with Olsen Ranches, Harrisburg, NE and Colorado State University. (Semen for Sale $20/unit)

http://www.cainbulls.com/referencesires.htm

 

[Herefords.US]

I think right now I will just push 3027 way. I have a few calves out of him n I like so far.

From 3027's performance pedigree:

Daughters in production: 67
Calves Reported so far: 26
Avg. WW ratio: 96.5

Does this data not concern you about the milking ability of this bull's daughters?

George

 

[redfornow]

I think right now I will just push 3027 way. I have a few calves out of him n I like so far.

From 3027's performance pedigree:

Daughters in production: 67
Calves Reported so far: 26
Avg. WW ratio: 96.5

Does this data not concern you about the milking ability of this bull's daughters?

George

:nod:

 

[Ned Jr.]

I think right now I will just push 3027 way. I have a few calves out of him n I like so far.

From 3027's performance pedigree:

Daughters in production: 67
Calves Reported so far: 26
Avg. WW ratio: 96.5

Does this data not concern you about the milking ability of this bull's daughters?

George

It doesn't look like the daughters of the CSU RAM bull are off to a very good start either.

Daughters in production: 12

Calves Reported so far: 10

Avg. WW ratio: 93.7

 

[alexfarms]

I think right now I will just push 3027 way. I have a few calves out of him n I like so far.

From 3027's performance pedigree:

Daughters in production: 67
Calves Reported so far: 26
Avg. WW ratio: 96.5

Does this data not concern you about the milking ability of this bull's daughters?

George

How does a bull with a plus 70 yw epd and 26 daughters with average weaning weight ratios of 96.5 get a +27 milk epd? One of the mysteries of our genetic analysis. Here is one that hits close to my heart:
http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 5&9=5F515B
Now when I sold this bull, he had a yw epd of over 50. He was a bull that I had planned to cut, but the gentleman looked through my heard and wanted this bull. He's the best calf the dam ever produced, but I didn't like the background of his pedigree. After some haggling, I agreed to sell the bull to him...hard to pass up when I was gonna cut him otherwise. I talked to the man the first year after he got the first calf crop. He was disappointed, he said too much birth weight. He says, no real big calves, but no little ones either, so the bw average is too high for him. I look up the data on the authorized user page and only two calves are entered with average bw ratios of 97 and both of the dams are plus bw epds, one +3.6 and the other +.3. And only 2 calves have had data collected according to the pperformance pedigree(all average 100 ratios), while the epd box says 15 bw, 13 ww and yw and 11 carcass ultrasounds have been collected. Apparantly, what is happening is they are putting performance data from commercial cows into the genetic analysis and lowering the bulls epds as a result. This bulls yw epds have dropped about 10 pounds and his sire's epds have dropped 4 with this performance data from commercial cows. And basically, his progeny have been compared to no other purbred contemporaries. Now how do you verify the performance epds of commercial cows and even their identity for that matter? Yeah, I am being negative again and I don't like that either, but basically, these epds can be rigged. Anyone who doesn't know it can be rigged, or played with is not in touch with reality. And having these kinds of things happen makes it real tempting to pull out of the performance program.

 

[buymorebulls]

The bull was a +34 MM one year ago. He has declined the last two analysis. Now, he's +27 as a result of his 96.5 daughter nursing ratio, it would appear. What the 96.5 ratio doesn't tell us is what the calves were sired by and those sires level of genetic growth. The daughters calves could have been sired by low growth bulls compared to the contemporary group sires.

 

[Frankie]

Apparantly, what is happening is they are putting performance data from commercial cows into the genetic analysis and lowering the bulls epds as a result. This bulls yw epds have dropped about 10 pounds and his sire's epds have dropped 4 with this performance data from commercial cows. And basically, his progeny have been compared to no other purbred contemporaries.

Are you sure they're putting commercial cow data into the database with registered cows? EPDs change all the time; sometimes they get higher, sometimes they get lower. Wouldn't heterosis come into play and actually make the weights on the crossbred calves higher than the purebred?

 

[VanC]

Apparantly, what is happening is they are putting performance data from commercial cows into the genetic analysis and lowering the bulls epds as a result. This bulls yw epds have dropped about 10 pounds and his sire's epds have dropped 4 with this performance data from commercial cows. And basically, his progeny have been compared to no other purbred contemporaries.

Are you sure they're putting commercial cow data into the database with registered cows? EPDs change all the time; sometimes they get higher, sometimes they get lower. Wouldn't heterosis come into play and actually make the weights on the crossbred calves higher than the purebred?

As I understand it, commercial simply means unregistered. They could still be purebreds, therefore heterosis would not come into play if bred to a bull of the same breed. Now whether EPDs are being determined using commercial cows is another story. I thought EPD data was only collected on registered animals. Am I wrong?

 

[Brandonm22]

I am going off memory here; but you can report data off any cow you own to the AHA for the whole herd inventory; though you pay a per head fee for every cow you include in the inventory. The AHA takes data from nonregistered cows too for eventual use in crossbreed EPDs; but I don't think they are using that YET to calculate the EPDs. The crossbreed EPD guys claims that their system accounts for heterosis effects.

 

[smnherf]

I think right now I will just push 3027 way. I have a few calves out of him n I like so far.

From 3027's performance pedigree:

Daughters in production: 67
Calves Reported so far: 26
Avg. WW ratio: 96.5

Does this data not concern you about the milking ability of this bull's daughters?

George

How does a bull with a plus 70 yw epd and 26 daughters with average weaning weight ratios of 96.5 get a +27 milk epd? One of the mysteries of our genetic analysis. Here is one that hits close to my heart:
http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 5&9=5F515B
Now when I sold this bull, he had a yw epd of over 50. He was a bull that I had planned to cut, but the gentleman looked through my heard and wanted this bull. He's the best calf the dam ever produced, but I didn't like the background of his pedigree. After some haggling, I agreed to sell the bull to him...hard to pass up when I was gonna cut him otherwise. I talked to the man the first year after he got the first calf crop. He was disappointed, he said too much birth weight. He says, no real big calves, but no little ones either, so the bw average is too high for him. I look up the data on the authorized user page and only two calves are entered with average bw ratios of 97 and both of the dams are plus bw epds, one +3.6 and the other +.3. And only 2 calves have had data collected according to the pperformance pedigree(all average 100 ratios), while the epd box says 15 bw, 13 ww and yw and 11 carcass ultrasounds have been collected. Apparantly, what is happening is they are putting performance data from commercial cows into the genetic analysis and lowering the bulls epds as a result. This bulls yw epds have dropped about 10 pounds and his sire's epds have dropped 4 with this performance data from commercial cows. And basically, his progeny have been compared to no other purbred contemporaries. Now how do you verify the performance epds of commercial cows and even their identity for that matter? Yeah, I am being negative again and I don't like that either, but basically, these epds can be rigged. Anyone who doesn't know it can be rigged, or played with is not in touch with reality. And having these kinds of things happen makes it real tempting to pull out of the performance program.

I am unaware of the AHA using commercial cows in a genetic analysis but I am by no means an expert. The Bw shows him being used in 2 herds. Is it possible he was used in a non tpr herd and that data isn't being shown on the performance pedigree info? I also know Ken has put calves into the National feedout and I do think that data is used for epd calculations. I don't know how they weight it though as far as epd calculations. It is possible his data was entered wrong to by the AHA. Have you visited with Ken about it?

Interesting how his current epds pretty much show that he bred back to the average of his parents epds.

Brian

 

[alexfarms]

I have not visited with him or the AHA on it. To me it is obvious that the data is coming from unregistered cows. Even if there is some other explanation, the ratios should show up on the performance pedigree or in some way be traceable to a commercial cow id. If any cow has epd's in the AHA data base, then she ought to have some history to back up those epds and it should be available to the authorized users who pay for that info within the system.