2 yr Angus bull - what do you think?

[regolith]

This is the bull I used with my dairy herd last year. I'm curious to know what you guys think of him. I have photos of his calves (mainly Jersey crosses), but I'd like to know how you would judge him on his appearance.

Not one of his calves (even taking into account them being up to 50% Jersey) was saleable.

 

[3waycross]

Not the manliest fellow I've seen. He is a cow freshener and not much more.

What do you mean his calves were not saleable.?

 

[regolith]

I'll post pics of the calves when I have time - just about to head off milking.
They were the wrong colour (red, chocolate, chocolate + tan, tan, one black one). Wrong shape - you could just about pick the beef character and that was it.

I like the Angus, but I'm no judge of the breed and I thought this was a good looking bull - I didn't buy him myself, my stock agent bought him and the first time I saw him was when he arrived on farm. He was a bit cheaper than you'd expect for a 2-yr Angus, but I would have expected calves that looked like Angus.

 

[3waycross]

If price was your criteria then you got what you paid for.

If you expected a bull that was representative of the breed then you got screwed.

You probably need a new stock agent.

Funny thing is if you feed them enuf, for long enuf, his calves may just marble like crazy and be pretty good eating

 

[Putangitangi]

I reckon your saleyards might be rather like those in my region: if it's black they call it Angus, no matter what's in the blood. Can your agent tell you who bred him and from what? Or what's on the Animal Status Declaration form in regard to whether or not he was born on the farm which sold him and does that help?

 

[KNERSIE]

I wonder what a dna test would reveal?..................

 

[regolith]

I wonder what a dna test would reveal?..................

So would I...

I'm uploading those calf photos now. In some ways, he was perfect - but no way you could sell the calves. So not one of you would have walked away from the sale barn with him? (Yeah, I think I need a new stock agent, have thought so for a while)

 

[Bez+]

I wonder what a dna test would reveal?..................

So would I...

I'm uploading those calf photos now. In some ways, he was perfect - but no way you could sell the calves. So not one of you would have walked away from the sale barn with him? (Yeah, I think I need a new stock agent, have thought so for a while)

I am not even going to get into the bull discussion - I know bulls fairly well and yours does not get the head nod from me - lots of folks here will be happy to tell you why.

He was a bit cheaper than you'd expect for a 2-yr Angus

This statement made me chuckle - what is a two year old worth? The answer is as follows: Unless he has the right breeding, conformation and temperment - he is only worth meat price at best.

Never buy something that will make up half your herd just because it is cheap - unless of course you do not care what the selling price of the calves will be.

Your present lot of calves will all sell. You just might not like the price. Load them - ship them and take your wife out to dinner on the cheque. Heck I once sold a 2200 pound bull for 4 cents a pound - and he was dynamite compared to yours.

In this regard, the producers first loss is almost always their best loss. Hanging on usually - not always - but mostly - is the most expensive solution to a bad situation. Toss them and start over.

If you need an animal just to freshen cows - then keep him - knowing what he is to be used for. Otherwise - trade him off.

Your stock agent: He brings you an animal like this? Then you tell him to not come back again. Time for you to do your own buying.

I think your stock agent believes you to be an easy sale when times get slow. Not the type of business arrangement I would like to have.

Take care

Bez+

 

[Australian]

He's a dairy type bull. Light in the rear end. Bet you don't have any calving troubles. Great to see a few New Zealanders coming on board.

 

[regolith]

Ack, my internet connection just dropped my post. Thanks Bez, that's pretty much what i thought. I showed the stock agent these calves, he dutifully admired the largest...
Yes Australian - as I said in the post that vanished (half the calves at leat had horns) I thought he was maybe a Jersey cross. But the calf heads were wrong - neither Jersey nor Angus.

 

[regolith]

Okay, starting again on this images, this time with the cutest...

67 has some crossbreeding, she's probably J12F4. One red heifer, one black one (I lied about the one black calf, had forgotten this one):

The other black calf is just an embarassment. Mother is a broken colour Jersey, had a smallish calf last year as well:

This was typical. Out of a Jersey cow - and I *loved* these calves. Small and thrifty - yes, they were easy calving, quick to get started. If I could have taken a couple like these through to slaughter myself I might have given it a go.

 

[regolith]

For comparison - these calves are out of Jersey cows AI'd to Waigroup Angus:

The Mixmash calves are in the background.

Never any trouble telling which calves were real Angus and which from the bull (if you're uncertain about his performance as a sire, I was getting AB and bull calves at the same time. His first week performance was so appalling that I took action immediately four weeks after putting him out - but left him running with the herd. Between him + me with the inseminator we got nearly 100% conception rate over the next 3 weeks.)

Talk about a cautionary tale...

 

[regolith]

This statement made me chuckle - what is a two year old worth? The answer is as follows: Unless he has the right breeding, conformation and temperament - he is only worth meat price at best.

Bez: I made a profit on him at the works. Got about $250 more than I paid for him.
Price wasn't one of the criteria I gave the stock agent - I wanted an Angus and he had to be a two year old (he's been trying to encourage me to go for yearlings because they're cheaper) because I've got some tall cows.
This year I ran Jersey bulls with the herd. But having watched them happily serving cows on the run and several weeks pregnant, I think I'd rather go back to the Angus. *Real* Angus. They're good at servicing, but not quite that good.

Standard price for a 2 yr dairy service bull here is works price, unless there's a shortage. There's a number of wellknown names providing bulls bred specifically for dairy - Waigroup is one. I don't know how their prices range - it's probably time to investigate. Previous years managing other people's farms I've seen calving problems from impure (probably Friesian) Angus sweeper bulls.

 

[Bez+]

This statement made me chuckle - what is a two year old worth? The answer is as follows: Unless he has the right breeding, conformation and temperament - he is only worth meat price at best.

Bez: I made a profit on him at the works. Got about $250 more than I paid for him.
Price wasn't one of the criteria I gave the stock agent - I wanted an Angus and he had to be a two year old (he's been trying to encourage me to go for yearlings because they're cheaper) because I've got some tall cows.
This year I ran Jersey bulls with the herd. But having watched them happily serving cows on the run and several weeks pregnant, I think I'd rather go back to the Angus. *Real* Angus. They're good at servicing, but not quite that good.

Standard price for a 2 yr dairy service bull here is works price, unless there's a shortage. There's a number of wellknown names providing bulls bred specifically for dairy - Waigroup is one. I don't know how their prices range - it's probably time to investigate. Previous years managing other people's farms I've seen calving problems from impure (probably Friesian) Angus sweeper bulls.

#67 is one skinny cow.

You are new here so i will caution you - your terminology and north american are vastly different.

Have no idea what a "works price is". Suspect sale barn.

Many will have to think when they see "paddock" which is a pen not a field to most - most will give you a funny look when you talk poddy calves and so on.

So be specific when you write - it helps.

Sweeper bull? I think I know but will let you tell me. Suspect a clean up.

Friesian? Fancy name for Holstein over here. Almost always mixed in to some breed somewhere - I personally believe they should never be allowed a beef barn - especially old worn out bags of bones with fallen udders and schitt covered rear ends - but that is just me.

You get my drift on the above.

One of my mates here in the middle east is a Kiwi - just arrived here last month.

Nice to see you on board.

Bez+

 

[regolith]

I need to slow down posting...

I've been trying to understand the terminology myself, need to hang out here for a while longer I think.

Works = meat works. Direct to slaughter.

Poddy calves? I don't know that one myself. Do you mean the bobby system - selling for veal at a young age?

I don't believe Friesian is a fancy name for a Holstein, but that's my personal opinion. I started farming in Britain in the early nineties when Friesian was still a dual-purpose breed and you could tell as soon as you walked onto a dairy farm if they were the progressive guys who were AI-ing to Holstein bulls. Likewise here in NZ, there was a lot of Holstein influence on dairy genetics around that time, but now swung away from that.

I absolutely agree with you that Holstein (and the modern Friesian) isn't a suitable beef producer. Right now most of the calves born to my herd are just wasted. I'm thinking of ways to change that, but it's going to be a lot of years in the future. The market wants the black and white, and Angus bulls (or Hereford), and not much else.
So I could switch to dual-purpose breeds fifteen years down the line and still have no market for the calves.

Yes, sweeper bull cleans up after AI. I figured I was taking a risk with about 30 open cows and bringing in one bull, so I kept the AI bank on hand and was very glad I did. This year, two bulls.

 

[TB-Herefords]

What are you trying to do? Produce feeder calves; or are you trying to produce milk cows? If feeders was the route; than why are you going back to Jersey bulls. Your not going to get that great of calves out of one cross. You'll have to get rid of those jersey or keep working those beef genetics in for a few generation befor you have a nice set of calves. Sale barns around here would dock you big time, everytime; black or not buyers can see dairy cross from a mile away. Calving ease doesn't mean a lot if your gonna be giving the calves away at the sale barn. Other than that I'm not sure why you (or anyone) would mese with jersey cattle for beef production. Or for that matter any dairy animal for beef production. I think you can get enough milk, size, and calving ease out of todays genetic pool. But maybe someone can enlighten me. :welcome: Non the less I love lookin at the pics so post lots

 

[cowman30]

I wonder what a dna test would reveal?..................

So would I...

I'm uploading those calf photos now. In some ways, he was perfect - but no way you could sell the calves. So not one of you would have walked away from the sale barn with him? (Yeah, I think I need a new stock agent, have thought so for a while)

Sure the calves would be saleable as freezer beef but you would get docked at the sale barn. Nope I wouldnt have let him on my farm. I would have walked away if someone tried to sale him to me.

 

[Keren]

yep, that one fine dairy angus bull

 

[Loch Valley Fold]

Yep a typical dairy beef clean up bull If you have been milking Jerseys for a while you will know that they will reduce the size of just about anything bred to them. Those pictures you posted of the calves in the shed look exactly like our neighbours jersey x angus calves. A 2yr old bull running the xxxx number of cows & not getting any hard feed is not going to look anywhere near as good as some of the Angus bulls posted here, add to that the camera angles are wrong.
If you are trying to get a better price for bobby calves look into getting a calving ease limousin, Gelbvieh, Blonde d'Aquitaine or Parthenaise. All are muscled breeds & all come are the same colour as a Jersey.

"#67 is one skinny cow.

Typical dairy cow & by the looks of the photo has just delivered twins & naturally would look tuckered out (skinny)

 

[regolith]

Take two: (bouncy internet connection)

What are you trying to do? Produce feeder calves; or are you trying to produce milk cows? If feeders was the route; than why are you going back to Jersey bulls. Your not going to get that great of calves out of one cross. You'll have to get rid of those jersey or keep working those beef genetics in for a few generation befor you have a nice set of calves.

TB-Herefords: A third of the cows that bull mated were Holstein-Friesian or mostly so, and the bulls of that breed and their beef crosses usually sell well here. Before bringing him in I'd done 5 weeks AI with dairy semen, and beef semen over the lower producing cows. That takes care of herd replacements.

Dang, I wish you could just read the very eloquent former post that got lost I'm slowly breeding up with a view to maximising hybrid vigour, potentially moving to dual-purpose breeds but also trying to stay within the accepted industry limits for breeding top dairy cows. Angus is a compromise between easy calving and the potential of a few calf sales. I decided to go back to Jersey basically because I was pissed off at the fella posted above being sub-fertile, wasn't getting calf sales anyway (my stock agent has a habit of conveniently forgetting my animals) and another farmer voiced his opinion that dairy farmers were shooting themselves in the foot trying to cross to beef. I've since read around enough to learn that what he said doesn't hold true to Angus - Hereford are longer gestation and higher birthweight.
The most sensible route from here looks like doing 12-weeks AI, with short gestation Jersey semen over the Jerseys and short gestation Angus (that's what the Waigroup semen was) over the larger cows. Next year I'll probably be making the decision again - buy the semen and do the work of heat detecting and cutting cows out myself, or get bulls in with all the attendant risks. Haven't decided yet.
Unwanted calves get trucked off farm at four - five days old for veal. That's where my Jerseys and their crosses go, except for the AI-sired heifers. It's an alternative to shooting them.

Ah: Loch Valley Fold - yes, it's the twins that caused that. Hard year with drought last year and the herd weren't as fat as I'd have liked going into calving, but anything else that light would have been sick.

I hope the 'exactly like' photos is *only* the one of the AI-sired calves? I've seen some odd supposedly-Angus calves before, but nothing like these creatures.