16 month old Hereford bull

[HerefordSire]

Cash flow, not total cost, is what I would be concerned with so play along with me if you please.

To collect a 1000 straws of semen expect to disburse between $1250.00 to $2000.00 Then theres 3 to 5 cents storage per month which could be $50.00 per month.

Since I am interested in 100,000 units, I should be able to receive a volume discount. Since you mentioned $1,250 let's make it $1K even, as long as I fork over $50K deposit. My collection cost per unit for the entire 100,000 units, would be approximately $1.00 per unit or $100,000 half of which has already been paid. If I had a sledge hammer slammed against my head and you needed 10,000 units for your commercial herd in Argentina, would you pay $2.00 per unit? In other words, would you be willing to invest $20,000 for a bargain that you would normally pay $10 per unit or $100,000 as long as I had the right bull? If so, I would have 90,000 units remaining and be committed to repaying $80,000 or $30,000 after applying the deposit. My cost per unit drops from $1.00 to $.80. Get the drift?

Take that times 100 see if you care to gamble 100 times over. The storage on 100,000 straws would be $3,000.00 to $5,000.00 per month. Let alone 125 to 200 thousand to get that many straws collected. I don't care whos check book it is it's not chump change.

Negative. In cash flow management, the idea would be to never accumulate more units than you could sell the prior month.

Course a man could buy a tank big enough to store a couple hundred thosand straws for 30 to 40 thousand. Then it would only be about a thousand or so amonth for the liquid nitrogen.

I don't want to manage semen. I manage intellectual content because it pays better.

If anyone has a bull of that calliber sell the collection rights to genex or someone.

Negative. Why let them make the money?

Thats my take.

 

[HerefordSire]

So why not breed back to M326 or 5N if he fits your fancy.

Good question! The answer may lie in the difference between the bulls you mention and the young bull in question. For example, the dam of this young bullock traces to 517 AND Governor AND Circle-D Wrangler 832W. This puts the total 517 trace counts to three (there may be more) which should promote additional calving ease and potentially other hidden benefits in high demand like $BMI acceleration.

Bulls like this are good, but are fairly common.

Name one bull that traces to 517 three times. Name one that traces to 3008 once and 517 three times.

Look at all the blue:

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 6&9=505D5B

He needs to prove himself, and his momma needs to prove herself.

517 are already proven. 3008 is already proven along with the Gov, 19D, 832W, and others included in the pedigree. I agree in the additional risk and proper breeding rules we should all follow under normal circumstances. This is where the real profit is… it is disguised because it is being compared to a certificate of deposit at a bank drawing 3% per year and adjusted for inflation becomes a negative return for you giving a bank your money.

Unless you want to pull smen only for your use, I doubt you will make your money back. But if money isn't your reasoning then go for it.

We will never win because we already lost before crossing the chalk line between the dugout and the pitchers mound.

You never know, maybe he is the next big cattleman's bull. Regardless, good luck.

Now you are talking. Please tell we why there is a possibility?

 

[oakcreekfarms]

I understand that risk is where the money is held, but I am not going to chase a single trait to bankruptcy.

He has a good pedigree, that helps, but doesn't show how he himself is going to work. He has an unknown mother, a sire that is only growing in success and not proven (no daughters with info gathered).

Herefordsire with your thinking every well bred bull would turn out great. That is far from the truth. Do you know how many full brother 3008 had that weren't really all that successful. Do you know how many times 517 was bred. He has a long ways to prove himself, and his ancestors don't do that for him. This bull has no REA, IMF, or back fat ratios. He is going to have to prove what he can do with his weaning calves. Then he is going to have to get daughters into production, Governor will help save the udder quality. Then those daughters are going to have to wean heavy calves, then the bull might see outside use. What is that, 4 years down the road if you bred him to 100 cows now.

Maybe my thinking is way off.

 

[Brandonm2]

To collect a 1000 straws of semen expect to disburse between $1250.00 to $2000.00 Then theres 3 to 5 cents storage per month which could be $50.00 per month.

Take that times 100 see if you care to gamble 100 times over. The storage on 100,000 straws would be $3,000.00 to $5,000.00 per month. Let alone 125 to 200 thousand to get that many straws collected. I don't care whos check book it is it's not chump change.

Course a man could buy a tank big enough to store a couple hundred thosand straws for 30 to 40 thousand. Then it would only be about a thousand or so amonth for the liquid nitrogen.

If anyone has a bull of that calliber sell the collection rights to genex or someone.

Thats my take.

I never advocated making that kind of investment. I am only talking about storing 100-200 straws for future in-herd use; not marketing him world wide or basing the entire program around him. I would either have to have a whole lot of faith in a bull OR own a heck of a lot more cows than I am ever likely to own before I bred 100 cows to one just bull. There are too many other options out there.

brandom I was addressing those who used the numbers of 100,000 units of semen.

I realized that. While I did advocate collecting him once or twice, I felt I needed to differentiate myself from the folks who are talking about mass marketing the bull. Very Few Hereford bulls ever sell 10,000 straws much less 100,000.

 

[HerefordSire]

I understand that risk is where the money is held, but I am not going to chase a single trait to bankruptcy.

I am not asking you to OakCreekFarms and I am also not advocating a single trait. The bullock happens to be very high on the top bullock list in the entire country. Do you have any idea how many animals this bullock is competing against?

He has a good pedigree, that helps, but doesn't show how he himself is going to work.

Like I said, if you want no risk look at a certificate of a deposit drawing 3% and adjust for inflation will provide a negative return. Even if the animal has already proven himself, there is still risk except it will take you years and years to prove him. Times are changing. The breeding rules in place counteract the economics of reality. If you bury your cash in your backyard, there is a good possibility you will wakeup in 8 years (the time it may take for your to prove the animal then he may be dead) only to find the cash will buy half as much. Therefore, if you do nothing, you can lose.

He has an unknown mother, a sire that is only growing in success and not proven (no daughters with info gathered).

What a great time for an investment. Buy low and sell high.

Herefordsire with your thinking every well bred bull would turn out great. That is far from the truth.

If you breed the bullock to 1000 females, don't you agree one of them can be great? If so, do you think the effort and investment would be worth it?

Do you know how many full brother 3008 had that weren't really all that successful.

No, how many?

Do you know how many times 517 was bred.

2,667 successful times to registered Herefords.

He has a long ways to prove himself, and his ancestors don't do that for him. This bull has no REA, IMF, or back fat ratios. He is going to have to prove what he can do with his weaning calves. Then he is going to have to get daughters into production, Governor will help save the udder quality.

Please expand your thinking on the udder quality. Are you implying your M326 progeny have bad udders?

Then those daughters are going to have to wean heavy calves, then the bull might see outside use. What is that, 4 years down the road if you bred him to 100 cows now.

I see you play only by the book with no exceptions which is fine, dandy, and conservative. Some people are like that. Maybe that is why registrations are dropping like a falling knife, because it is too risky.

Maybe my thinking is way off.[/quote]

Sounds pretty sharp to me.

 

[oakcreekfarms]

Well my thinking isn't way off, just add that on to pretty much every statement. It leaves it open for rebutle.

M326 daughters do not have the udder quality of governor, or marshal daughters. They are very acceptable, but even kevin will tell you they aren't perfect.

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 2B3C2B3C3A

Here is your answer to 3008, no other sibling had nearly the success. Most had sky rocketing BW's, some had lower the average ratio on YW, most had negative REA's.

No it isn't worth breeding 1000 times to get one good one, if it takes that many you are doing something tragically wrong.

Hereford registrations are falling because of the flight to go black. Also related to the failures that hereford breeders were doing 15-20 years ago. No milk, bad udders, bad feet, pinkeye, cancer eye, no depth, frame 8, no REA's, and no IMF, we lost our ability to make input into profit; and all of these things (though most have been fixed) keep future bull buyers from buying herefords. We have one of the most profitable, and marketable cattle in the business; and yet it is difficult to sell at reasonable prices. Our stockers take a $.1 discount, and our pairs lose $100. I might be young, but we have run herefords on this place for 25 years. I have seen the changes.

Yes the risks taken since then have made us have a more commercial and profitable type of cattle today, and I agree about risks. I just don't believe that you are taking the right ones. I take risks every day.

I wish you the best of luck.

This is just my thinking, though I might be complelty off.

 

[HerefordSire]

You last line was a Picasso in the context of your entire message. :cboy:

By the way, your posted link was not good.

How old were the females with udder problems?

 

[CPL]

Is this the right bull?

I just keep wondering what he would have looked like if he had been fed to express his genetic potential.

I like the fact that he wasn't pushed. That way you know that if something came up (or you simply wanted to) and you feed his calves they would be really nice, but you also know that if you don't shove grain down their throat they should still fill out into nice brood cows.

 

[Frankie]

I just keep wondering what he would have looked like if he had been fed to express his genetic potential.

I like the fact that he wasn't pushed. That way you know that if something came up (or you simply wanted to) and you feed his calves they would be really nice, but you also know that if you don't shove grain down their throat they should still fill out into nice brood cows.

And you know that how? What have I missed that tells me that?

 

[oakcreekfarms]

I never said they had udder problems, that would be far from true. They just weren't as good as the others. All though typically the Marshals and governors have near perfect udders.

 

[CPL]

I just keep wondering what he would have looked like if he had been fed to express his genetic potential.

I like the fact that he wasn't pushed. That way you know that if something came up (or you simply wanted to) and you feed his calves they would be really nice, but you also know that if you don't shove grain down their throat they should still fill out into nice brood cows.

And you know that how? What have I missed that tells me that?

A calf that looks nice off grain will look even better when its on grain. I don't like to feed grain any more than what is needed, but if you have cattle that are filling out nicely on grass and milk, then when you put them into a feed sack for the most part they will look better. It just gives you more options than something that MUST be feed. (sorry if that doesn't sound right- was working all day and the heat's gotten to me).

I like the bull. He should do good as a clean up bull and if his daughters do well that is an even bigger plus. Although I don't see what HerefordSire sees in this bull- I do like him.

 

[LFF]

Job well done! I believe what you will find out is his growth has not begun yet, specifically, he should get much longer, as the 3008 daughters I have are very very very long and getting longer! Additionally, this specific bull has EF genetics known for very high REA. The numbers are solid. Being a 517 linebred (nice calving ease to spread to descendants!), with Governor and 3008 to boot, add tremendous value. Overall in the market, I believe 3008 offspring are very undervalued and in about five or so years, 3008 breeders should get well rewarded. Before the general public gets too much experience with them and sees the value I do, accumulation at low prices becomes more important. Want to sell him?

It your really interested send me a PM or call, we'll discuss it.