126 lb. new born

[DiamondSCattleCo]

The first generation of the high birth weight is not the problem but when that higher birthweight creeps into the cowherd things get a lot harder.

I find it interesting that opponents of high birthweights always mention birthweight creep.

Selecting for higher birthweights is no different than any other genetic trait like frame size or muscling or etc etc etc. Its certainly no different than selecting for low birth weights.

You must exercise discipline when choosing your replacements, and aggressively cull out those who don't go where you want. I've been running high birthweights for the last 6 years and my average hasn't crept up at all. Before I tried the low birthweights, my average birthweights stayed within that 100 lb average + or - a few lbs each year, depending on bulls. Any bull that brought my average up too much left, and none of his daughters stayed either. Ditto any bull and his daughters that brought things down too much. If a heifer was born way above that years average, she could be the nicest animal walking and she'd still be freezer material.

I guess I don't find this all to be terribly difficult. Choose the animal and program you want and cull out those that don't measure up. Only then will you end up with a consistent set of animals that you can be proud of and will make you money.

Rod

 

[Northern Rancher]

Hereford Sire I hate to rain on your little parade but I'm far from closeminded and as far as thinking I'm better than others-not hardly. I do however call them as I see them and I might just put some money on the table that I've had a touch more experience on the practical side of ranching than you have. If the thought of a man spanking me gives you pleasure-better seek help sunshine. Like I said before I'm not going to compete in the big BW Hereford market with you so have at it.

 

[HerefordSire]

NR..

You can't rain on open minded and positive thinkers. You can only rain on gloom and doomers. Therefore, move your dark clouds over your own seeded pastures because I predict a drought your way. See...there you go again...picking on someone smaller than you! Let's see you pick on someone your own size like Diamond...

Besides, you are due for another spanking and I haven't had any entertainment lately.

 

[CowpokeJ]

Read your post about putting it in a bible Rod-if your calves average 100 pounds your having some that weigh considerably more than that-do you retain them. I was saying the same thing all along you just didn't get off your jackrabbit rant long enough to read it. As for being a genuine cattleman-I make my living in the cattle business-do you? As for sarcasm your smart mouth comment about jackrabbit calves was replied to in kind -don't pout about it now. So Rod answer this how far do you plan on pushing BW's up-I'm curious to hear.

We could have stopped right there. By deductive reasoning, Rod, unless you make a living in the cattle business, you are bovinely challenged....

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

By deductive reasoning, Rod, unless you make a living in the cattle business, you are bovinely challenged....

Good thing I make my living in the cattle business, I guess.

Rod

 

[ArrowHBrand]

Now I don't want to hit the hornet nest with a stick, but sometimes you have to. Pushing heifers to have 100+ calves will only shorten their production life and reverse the leaps forward in genetics that have been accomplished. You can't just look at BW when evaluating calves. We bought a bull this year that had an 81 lbs. BW, but a 644 lbs. at 205 days. For the feeder calf producer those are numbers you can't ignore. You don't need to have 100+ lbs. calves to have high wean and 205 day weights. That is the development of genetics, low birthweight, especially for heifers, but with high wean, 205, and yearling weights for those replacement heifers you may keep. A heifer having a 126 lbs. calf makes me shake my head and hope you don't use that bull/cow combo again. We used to have a cow that would consistantly have 100+ lbs. calves, but she was 1350 lbs. and none of her daughters went back into the herd. We also have had a cow that had twins three years in a row from three different bulls, she also went down the road.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

A few things I'd like to address in your post Arrow:

1) Never said I wanted 100 lb calves from my heifers. I target for 90 lb birthweights from my heifers. I certainly didn't like to see a 126 lb calf from a heifer but rather used that to illustrate a point: that well chosen breeding stock can EASILY give birth to large calves without worry. And I thought I mentioned that bull was an aberation and got booted down the road, but I may not have. I did mention in the last post that any animal that throws above my averages goes away though.

2) Please explain how exactly a large calf, say 90 lbs, my target, shortens the breeding lifetime of my animals? I've had this told to me before, but have yet to hear a sound explanation. I'd appreciate the benefit of your thoughts on this.

Here's my thoughts on it: As I've mentioned a few times in this thread, my heifers and cows drop those larger calves easily. I don't see most of my calves being born. Easy births and quick rebreeding tells me they are not stressed one little bit and as such, no shortened lifespan.

I run an open percentage of under 1%. My culls are typically old swing bags, teeth gone or low performance, which certainly can't be tied back to high birthweights. My longevity is right in line with the rest of the world, if not a little better. I've got 2 or 3 16 year old cows out there that were among the first to drop this year and they've had big calves for most of their lives. Last year I buried a 20 year old baldie cow whose teeth had finally given up. She was only here for 10 or 12 years, but during that time she dropped heavy calves. These are exceptions, mind you, but its doggoned odd for me not to get 10 or 11 calves from an animal around here.

3) On the genetic side, we haven't made that great a strides. For every 80 lb BW bull that weans 644 lbs, I can show you a 100 lb BW bull that weaned at 700 or 750. I'll take the extra 100 lbs of calf everytime, especially if they drop unassisted.

As for your 1350 lb cow that dropped 100lb+ calves, wish I would have known you then. If she'd been a frame 4 or 4.5 cow, I would have bought her in a heartbeat. If dropped unassisted calves, that means she had the pelvic area to move those big calves through. If you'd kept her daughters, then bred them back to low BW bulls (your target), you probably would have ended up with a good group of cows that dropped your 80 lb targets, but COULD HAVE dropped a much larger calf, giving you wiggle room in case a bull surprised you in the future.

Rod

 

[forageconverter]

Calving ease selection should not necessarily be used to optimize a calf’s birth weight; but rather it should be used to optimize a cow’s or heifer’s potential to produce a desired end product, whether that desired end product be a calf to sell at the sale barn or it be a replacement heifer to go back into the herd.

In an attempt to maximize calving ease, many people sacrifice other desirable traits, such as yearling weight and/or milk production. A bull with a desirable yearling EPD and a desirable milk EPD may not have the best calving ease EPD, but this does not mean this bull will not work on a great number of cows or even some heifers. To overlook such a bull, for a bull with a better calving ease EPD and worse other EPD’s, is simply cheating yourself out of producing the most desirable product your bovine is capable of producing.

It’s not a matter of producing a 50 lb calf or a 100 lb calf. It’s much more knowing about your bovine’s calving ease potential so you are not limiting yourself just to the bulls with the best calving ease EPD’s. And just because a cow can have 100+ lb calves doesn’t mean it’s necessary to produce that heavy of a birth weight to produce the most desirable end product. A cow that can have 100+ lb calves is just simply a cow that will work on a greater number of bulls, which means it will be easier to select a bull for her that will produce one’s desired end product.

It’s also worth re-mentioning a calf’s shape, the size of the bovine, and the size of her pelvis area has much more to do with calving ease than does birth weight. When selecting for calving ease, a bull’s birth weight is a poor indicator of calving ease; a birth weight EPD is a good indicator in predicting calving ease; and an actual ‘calving ease’ EPD, which has more to do with the expected shape of the calf, is the best and most reliable indicator of calving ease.

As far as a 100 lb calf being more ‘hardy’ than a 50 lb calf when born, I don’t know, but sounds somewhat reasonable. As far as a 100 lb calf out growing a 50 lb calf, I would say that is much more determined by growth genetics and management, and little to do with birth weight.


Anyway……that’s what I think about it all.

 

[SEC]

All of his calves were weighing 55-67 lbs.

And therein lies the problem with these low birthweight cattle. The next thing you know, you've got a whack of heifers and cows that can't give birth to larger calves. If we're not careful, the entire industry is going to have a bunch of cattle that can't birth jackrabbits without OB chains.

While 127 lbs is certainly a big calf for a heifer (depending on the size of the heifer of course), my 8 and 9 weight heifers this year have all popped out 100 lb (smallest 88 lbs, largest 118) average calves unassisted. They've gotten up immediately, and had their calves up and sucking immediately. They all started cycling again and the bulls ready to go back in, so the heavier weights haven't hurt them in the least.

So let me ask an honest question, and not trying to start a scrap here: Why not, when selecting your replacement animals for your herd, select heifers whose pelvic dimensions and phenotype will allow them to carry and birth a larger calf? You get earlier maturity, extra free weight, a more resilient calf, and you're not bucking mother nature (cattle in their natural state did not give birth to 50 lb calves).

Rod

Theory says a cow will try to have 7% of their body weight and usually a heifer has a calf with less birthweight. How you you get your heifers to have calves this size?

How much is environment a factor?

 

[msscamp]

Calving ease selection should not necessarily be used to optimize a calf’s birth weight; but rather it should be used to optimize a cow’s or heifer’s potential to produce a desired end product, whether that desired end product be a calf to sell at the sale barn or it be a replacement heifer to go back into the herd.

Maybe I'm missing something here but, if a heifer cannot deliver a live, healthy, vigorous calf - then 'the desired end product' tends to be irrelevant, does it not?

 

[forageconverter]

Calving ease selection should not necessarily be used to optimize a calf’s birth weight; but rather it should be used to optimize a cow’s or heifer’s potential to produce a desired end product, whether that desired end product be a calf to sell at the sale barn or it be a replacement heifer to go back into the herd.

Maybe I'm missing something here but, if a heifer cannot deliver a live, healthy, vigorous calf - then 'the desired end product' tends to be irrelevant, does it not?

That’s true. But a live, healthy, vigorous calf does not necessarily imply a ‘desired end product’ will be attained.
Knowing the heifer’s calving ease potential allows one to select a bull that has the highest likelihood of producing a desired end product, while, of course, at the same time producing a live, healthy, vigorous calf at birth; because you would certainly not breed her to a bull beyond her calving ease potential.

In other words, knowing her calving ease potential allows for a greater selection of bulls that could safely be used on her. If she can easily calve what would turn out to be a more desirable end product, why not breed her to that bull, as opposed to a bull that would produce a less desirable end product?

 

[msscamp]

Calving ease selection should not necessarily be used to optimize a calf’s birth weight; but rather it should be used to optimize a cow’s or heifer’s potential to produce a desired end product, whether that desired end product be a calf to sell at the sale barn or it be a replacement heifer to go back into the herd.

Maybe I'm missing something here but, if a heifer cannot deliver a live, healthy, vigorous calf - then 'the desired end product' tends to be irrelevant, does it not?

That’s true. But a live, healthy, vigorous calf does not necessarily imply a ‘desired end product’ will be attained.
Knowing the heifer’s calving ease potential allows one to select a bull that has the highest likelihood of producing a desired end product, while, of course, at the same time producing a live, healthy, vigorous calf at birth; because you would certainly not breed her to a bull beyond her calving ease potential.

Just how does one do that? As far as I know, pelvic measurements are the limit, and that certainly does not give one minimums or maximums of a heifers calving ease - only a rough idea which could very easily prove to be wrong.

In other words, knowing her calving ease potential allows for a greater selection of bulls that could safely be used on her. If she can easily calve what would turn out to be a more desirable end product, why not breed her to that bull, as opposed to a bull that would produce a less desirable end product?

I understand what you're saying, I'm just not sure how one can determine the limits for this kind of thing.

 

[forageconverter]

Calving ease selection should not necessarily be used to optimize a calf’s birth weight; but rather it should be used to optimize a cow’s or heifer’s potential to produce a desired end product, whether that desired end product be a calf to sell at the sale barn or it be a replacement heifer to go back into the herd.

Maybe I'm missing something here but, if a heifer cannot deliver a live, healthy, vigorous calf - then 'the desired end product' tends to be irrelevant, does it not?

That’s true. But a live, healthy, vigorous calf does not necessarily imply a ‘desired end product’ will be attained.
Knowing the heifer’s calving ease potential allows one to select a bull that has the highest likelihood of producing a desired end product, while, of course, at the same time producing a live, healthy, vigorous calf at birth; because you would certainly not breed her to a bull beyond her calving ease potential.

Just how does one do that? As far as I know, pelvic measurements are the limit, and that certainly does not give one minimums or maximums of a heifers calving ease - only a rough idea which could very easily prove to be wrong.

In other words, knowing her calving ease potential allows for a greater selection of bulls that could safely be used on her. If she can easily calve what would turn out to be a more desirable end product, why not breed her to that bull, as opposed to a bull that would produce a less desirable end product?

I understand what you're saying, I'm just not sure how one can determine the limits for this kind of thing.

Her size should also be taken into consideration in determining her calving ease potential, as well as what is generally acceptable in the way of a bull’s calving ease for heifers.

A heifer’s calving ease potential would certainly be harder to determine than a cow that has calved many times. But many people in the industry consider a heifer’s first calf a ‘throw away calf’. They are only concerned about getting a small, live calf, and that’s it. I’m simply saying they are possibly wasting what could be a desirable calf crop.

There’s a special heifer sale in our area called the Show-me Select Heifer sale, or something like that. I’m not sure what the requirements are today, but it used to be that the heifers had to be bred to a bull(such as an Angus) that had a calving ease EPD of 6 or higher.

I’m saying if a bull has a calving ease of 6 or 7 and has a yearling EPD of +90, I would think it would be better to use this bull on a heifer of proper size and of proper pelvic size, than to use a bull with a calving ease of 11 and a yearling EPD of +36.

Likewise with a cow, I would prefer a calving ease of 4 and a yearling EPD of +100 as opposed to a calving ease of 11 and yearling of +36. I think the first bull would come closer to optimizing my cow’s potential of producing my desired end product.


I guess another way to say what I am trying to say is:

One should focus more on ‘acceptable’ calving ease, rather than ‘maximum’ calving ease; especially when the maximum calving ease comes at the cost of sacrificing other desirable traits that otherwise need not be sacrificed.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

In other words, knowing her calving ease potential allows for a greater selection of bulls that could safely be used on her. If she can easily calve what would turn out to be a more desirable end product, why not breed her to that bull, as opposed to a bull that would produce a less desirable end product?

I understand what you're saying, I'm just not sure how one can determine the limits for this kind of thing.

mss, I believe there are several phenotypical traits that you can use to give you a good idea of a heifer's calving potential. I don't do pelvic measurements around here, but rather look to a heifer to be deep and wide. I want to see a good flat back on her. This gives a large calf plenty of room to turn and get ready to come. Hooks and pins need to have the proper distance between them and not be at too much of an angle.

And of course on my own replacements, it becomes even easier. When deciding if I want to keep a heifer, I look to the cow's history. If the cow's calves tend to be a little slower getting up than the rest, I won't keep the heifer. If the cow hasn't been consistently in the herd average in her birth weights, the heifer won't stay.

Does this answer your question mss?

Rod

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

One should focus more on ‘acceptable’ calving ease, rather than ‘maximum’ calving ease; especially when the maximum calving ease comes at the cost of sacrificing other desirable traits that otherwise need not be sacrificed.

<chuckle> Where were you 4 pages ago, forage? You nicely summed up all my ramblings in one sentence.

Rod

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Theory says a cow will try to have 7% of their body weight and usually a heifer has a calf with less birthweight. How you you get your heifers to have calves this size?

A 2 yr old heifer will have a calf that will be lighter than her lifetime average, but heavier when measured with respect to her body weight. Many people articificially reduce heifer calving weights by using a 'heifer' bull. Since I'm currently concerned with herd growth and breeding potential (versus a saleable end product), I try not to do that, but rather run a group of heifers with a similar group of cows and use the same bull on them. The heifers will usually calve out about 10 lbs lighter than the cow average birthweight.

As far as management goes, I don't do anything special with my heifers. As the heifers are being backgrounded, I watch them and select out my replacements. As I select the ones I want, they get the boot into the cow pen where all they get is good quality hay and loose mineral.

Rod

 

[dun]

As far as management goes, I don't do anything special with my heifers. As the heifers are being backgrounded, I watch them and select out my replacements. As I select the ones I want, they get the boot into the cow pen where all they get is good quality hay and loose mineral.

Rod

We do the same thing. I'm surprised that more people don;t do it rather thrn feed the heifers a "growth" type of diet. At spring workup when the retained heifers are around 12-13 months old they run in the mid 800 to mid 900 range.

dun

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

We do the same thing. I'm surprised that more people don;t do it rather thrn feed the heifers a "growth" type of diet.

I think it gives me a much understanding of what their true growth potential is and how easy they'll keep later in life. A heifer that exhibits excellent growth on forage only will likely be an easy keeper later in life.

Rod