12 year old cows

[rockridgecattle]

looking for opinions on these 12 year olds. Two with calves that are 4 mo old. We have others on the salebarn block but opinions if these would make it another year?

Thanks

 

[AngusLimoX]

What you are looking for is a pat on the back. Well you got it!

You ship em all down here for free, and we'll see how many more #3's they pop out, as compared to what you get at the barn for them. :lol:

Cull cow prices - if they ain't open they stay.( All humane health considerations included ).

Is longevity not one of THE big culling points for cows? How do we know unless we keep em?

ALX

 

[rockridgecattle]

I wasn't looking for a "pat on the back" but rather an honest opinion on the cows. We are trying to figure out where we need to quit hemoraging in expenses and where to build up a herd that is making money. There have been so many posts lately about cows making you money rather than costing. Our herd is aged (didn't keep any back due to BSE and drought and now we are paying a high price), bringing up new blood but it's a long process. We've right now got culls on the list that are injured, sickness problems and now we need to work on the money loosers.
I would like to post more cows for opinions, young first timers and heiffers.
As well as some bulls.
Right now if we can't figure out what we are doing wrong we might get out.
In the beginning we picked "oh that's bessie's last calf" "oh she's cute" because that is how some of the cows were picked by the inlaws. That has taken it's toll.
Now we are entering new territory, picking replacements on merit rather than cute.
It's difficult knowing what to keep and what to toss so to speak. Need the "clean sweep" team to work on our cow herd.

 

[dun]

If those cows, which are pretty darn nice BTW, breed back on time, don;t have health or disposition problems and wean calves that are in the upper 75% of the herd, the should stay. It's that bottom 25% that will eat cubic dollars compared to what the bring in.

 

[randiliana]

OK, first off, it is the old girls that have paid their way (usually). We don't have a problem keeping old cows around, but you need to watch their production closely.

If the BW of their calf is suddenly drastically lower than what the herd avg or especially their own avg then it is time to take a hard look at her, in my book that is a pretty good indication of how they are going to perform from now on. If you are beyond that, have a close look at when they calved, again in relation to the rest of the herd, and especially in relation to when they usually calved previously. And finally the size of their calf come weaning time. If it is a lot smaller than normal and/or the rest of the herd. Those are some good ways to tell if she is on her way out. Best to sell her now if any of those send up a red flag, then to keep her and end up having her die or really go downhill.

In addition, look at how their BCS is in relation to the rest of the herd. If they are thinner than the average cows then it is quite possible that their teeth are going on them, and without teeth, she isn't going to perform either.

IMO, the best peice of equipment you can have is a scale, when it comes to performance issues. We rent one from the local 4-H.

Now, if you are looking to cull, look at your poor performers, we give a heifer 2 chances (usually) if she can't raise a calf to my standard by the time she is a 3 year old she gets a trip to town. We will cull out the odd heifer as a 2 year old if her performance is really bad, it has been my experience that if a heifer can't raise a 400+ lb calf (205 day weight) that she will not perform up to snuff in the following years either. I figure it is best to cull them out as 2 year olds, rather than feed them another year and still have a cull. Whatever you do pick a standard on what you expect your cows to perform to, (for example 500 lb WW) and cull to that.

Also, look at your late calvers, some cows are just late, year in and year out. Generally those will be your smaller calves.

Also, look at cows that you have had to assist calving, that is part of the reason I keep and individual record on each cow. We have 2 cows this year that will hit the road because of assisted calvings, they should have gone about 3 years ago. Both have a rather astounding history of malpresented calves.

Remember too, to look at the size of your cows, we will give a bit of leeway to a smaller cow over a larger cow. Usually your smaller cow will eat less, so presumably she can get away with weaning a smaller calf. I expect a cow to wean at least 50% of their body weight. .

And finally, have a defined calving season. That way you cull out the sub-fertile animals. Plus, (here in Sask anyways) the calf sale season is in the fall, and it is cheaper to raise a calf over the summer than the winter in this country.

There are some suggestions to think about. They may not all apply, but hope they gave you something to think about.

 

[rockridgecattle]

Thank you to all,
A scale is a good idea and that might be in the books in the future. Lots on the to do list first.
We spent about 4 years defining our calving season. This past year, with a two bulls down it expanded abit. This year with two bulls down it might get tossed out the window. So we plan to pull the bulls 90 days rather than 60 days. Amazing how 4 years of hard work can get chucked out the window so quickly.
We try to give out heffiers two chances as well. but if they are real bad...we might send some off.
These old girls are still pretty timely and they are good size calves at birth, wait and see at weaning.
Our cows, not the ones posted are smaller in size. We kept some smaller birth weight replacements...70-77#'s and they we bred to 70-77# bulls. I think we are seeing the results in smaller cows and smaller calves to market. So now we are gradually increasing the BW on cows to 90# We might be kicking ourselves in the butt...
Thanks for your inputs

 

[randiliana]

Thank you to all,
A scale is a good idea and that might be in the books in the future. Lots on the to do list first.
We spent about 4 years defining our calving season. This past year, with a two bulls down it expanded abit. This year with two bulls down it might get tossed out the window. So we plan to pull the bulls 90 days rather than 60 days. Amazing how 4 years of hard work can get chucked out the window so quickly.
We try to give out heffiers two chances as well. but if they are real bad...we might send some off.
These old girls are still pretty timely and they are good size calves at birth, wait and see at weaning.
Our cows, not the ones posted are smaller in size. We kept some smaller birth weight replacements...70-77#'s and they we bred to 70-77# bulls. I think we are seeing the results in smaller cows and smaller calves to market. So now we are gradually increasing the BW on cows to 90# We might be kicking ourselves in the butt...
Thanks for your inputs

We had that problem with a bull too. In the end, I think it would have been easier to cull out all the cows that he didn't breed as it took 3 years to bring them back up with the rest of the herd. It is a difficult thing to deal with. I hate bulls Even when they are all healthy they are nothing but trouble.

If those old girls are still raising a respectable calf I would have a hard time selling them, especially if I had a # of other culls on the list.

BW is a catch 22 generally. Smaller BW usually = smaller WW. Although 70+ on heifers isn't terrible. Not all 70 lb calves will be small framed, but a lot will. Work your way slowly up to 90 lbs, I find that a lot of times the smaller cows will have smaller calves regardless of what they are bred to (within reason). When buying bulls pay a lot of attention to the build of the bull, you want to see a long smooth bull, where everything blends in, not a big bulgy fellow. You will find the long smooth calves will be born a LOT easier. Also pay a lot of attention to the WW and WW EPD's of any bull you are interested in. You can find lower BW bulls with high growth, but you will have to pay for them.

Our cows run a BW average that is about 8% of their mature size. So, even a 1000 lb cow (not necessarily heifer) should handle an 80 lb calf.

When keeping heifers, train yourself to "like" ;-) the big ones better. I know it is hard, and we all have our favorites, just try to make the favorites the better quality ones ;-) . I know, I have done the same thing, but I have slowly trained myself to attatch to the good heifers.

On the scale idea, see if you can't find someone or somewhere that will rent a scale to you. Or, at the very least, try to follow your calves to the sale barn and be there when they weigh them. You won't get exact weights on every calf (if it is a presort) but you will get a pretty close average on them. That is what I did for a # of years before the 4-H started to rent a scale. It isn't perfect, but it is better than nothing. If you know your calves well enough, you should be able to figure out who weighed what on the weight ticket anyways, or have a fairly good idea. Another thing to remember when it comes to culling on performance, is that a 500 lb early March calf isn't the same as a 500 lb late Apr calf. The Apr cow did a much better job, and if you can get her to move up a month or better you will be seeing 550-600 lb calves out of her.

Good luck, and I am sure you will figure something out......

 

[preston39]

Those are keepers for a while longer.,,,should not be money loosers..... with calves like those...nice ones.

Ship the sick,injured or otherwise problem ones and let these continue. We have some 15 YO which look as good and watch them each year.
With the price of slaughters it is tempting.

We paddock graze and the old ones are given a few hours advance transfer...for obvious reasons. In the winter they are fed seperate and are given a little different ration...not more costly... than the regular herd.

 

[Herefordcross]

If they come up open then they be goin'

 

[*Cowgirl*]

As long as they breed back, by all means, keep them. They look very good. The only issue I see is #2s udder, but that is to be expected after 10 or so calves. As long as they breed and raise a calf every year, don't let them go. Those are some gooduns, I'd make sure I kept some daughters.

 

[rockridgecattle]

keepng daughters, we have been doing that...that is for sure.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Why do you think a 12 year old cow is old. With proper grass management (saves teeth) there are quite a few girls under management here late teens to early twenties. I hauled one earlier this year 23 and still spitting out calfs as regular as clock work, teeth finally wore out.

 

[Bez>]

looking for opinions on these 12 year olds. Two with calves that are 4 mo old. We have others on the salebarn block but opinions if these would make it another year?

Thanks

These cows are not old.

I'd be culling a few heifers and keeping these girls.

Push button cows are what every cattleman needs.

We have animals close to 20 here - they are regular and always raise a good one. Lots of years left yet.

How much time and effort and worry and money you spending on these girls compared to others in the herd?

If the answer is zero then why are you asking us? You answered the question yourself.

Bez>

 

[KNERSIE]

I wasn't looking for a "pat on the back" but rather an honest opinion on the cows. We are trying to figure out where we need to quit hemoraging in expenses and where to build up a herd that is making money. There have been so many posts lately about cows making you money rather than costing. Our herd is aged (didn't keep any back due to BSE and drought and now we are paying a high price), bringing up new blood but it's a long process. We've right now got culls on the list that are injured, sickness problems and now we need to work on the money loosers.
I would like to post more cows for opinions, young first timers and heiffers.
As well as some bulls.
Right now if we can't figure out what we are doing wrong we might get out.In the beginning we picked "oh that's bessie's last calf" "oh she's cute" because that is how some of the cows were picked by the inlaws. That has taken it's toll.
Now we are entering new territory, picking replacements on merit rather than cute.
It's difficult knowing what to keep and what to toss so to speak. Need the "clean sweep" team to work on our cow herd.

after seeing the bulls thread on the breeders board I think I can make a few suggestions on the areas I highligted above.

As far as expenses go, its simple, cows that need more help of you than others to do the same job are the money losers in the cow herd. Those that needs more supplement, are strugling to keep condition, calf later every year, etc. After that you cull the potential problems, ie those that wasn't a problem last year, but that might become a problem in future (bad udders, bad feet, etc)

Another thing to consider are what you really need as far as bulls. I don't know how many cattle you have, but your bull ratios are a bit of an overkill. You need 3 bulls per 100 cows in multisire breeding to be safe. Two of the bulls being mature and the other a yearling. This ratio is still applicable even in an extensive environment.

What are you doing wrong? I will be brutally honest now, otherwise it simply won't be any help. Your bulls are money losers, they are lacking in phenotype, lacking in structural correctness and most importantly they are hard keepers. From what I gathered you have atleast 160 cows, you need 3 mature bulls and two yearlings then you are still very safe. You could get by with less, but I will be conservative in my advice.

Keep the best three mature bulls, Rentabull being one of them and sell the rest, use that money to buy two GOOD QUALITY yearling bulls, next year sell the two mature bulls and replace them again with two good yearlings. From then on replace one of the older bulls every year and replace with a good yearling.

The crux is to buy the best quality possible, there seems to be nothing wrong with the cowherd, atleast its good enough to work with, but you need better bull power to maximise income out of the calf crop.

Make sure your stocking rates are well within par for your area, go and talk to other cattle farmers and find out how they stock, stock to 75% of that rate and see how much of what they told you was the truth, you can adjust up or down as needed.

Only retain the very best heifers out of good cows, your average age of the cow herd don't need to be 5, 8 is just as good as long as their are no free loafers in the mix.

If you have any other questions that you don't want to ask here, feel free to pm me.

 

[rockridgecattle]

in all honesty we have 100 cows. Before you laugh or start to jump on that here is the reason for this many bulls

The heiffer bull not posted is with the heiffers

Mr POopoo head is back up because of shenannigans (and he is ugly for a bull. I diddn't like him after the first year with heiffers but when times were tight BSE and DRought we were stuck) is with 10 culls and 5 late calvers here at home. Last year we had two bulls go down, foot rot and fractured jaw thanks to the ugliest cow in the world. So this year we wanted to be ready for trouble and kept him. Resale on bulls is 600.00 to the packers becasue most everyone wants virgins in this area. Would want to unload this ugly SOB on any victim anyhow.
The late ones are at home because we have a bear problem in the main pasture of 2Q which we are trying to take care of. Lost cows and calves to bears in the drought.

Tatton, 18, merlin were to service 80 cows. We like the short calving season. reason, we both work off farm and have 10 days off in the spring. We like the majoity to calve in three weeks and this has worked well for us.
Usually we divide our cows to herds of 20-30 and have one bull. Easch bull and herd is in there own pasture. This year is different for a couple of reasons.
1. the most cows we have ever had. In the last two years from 60 to 100. including the heiffers
2. we started the spring hot and dry so we decided against the several herds and opted for one herd of main cows and rotate grazing planning for a drought. Unfortuantly after the bulls went out the month of june was cold and wet and july last half was hot and dry.
We also like our heiffers in a pasture on their own so there is no competion for grass and the bull has a smaller birth weight to accomadate heiffers 70#
3. We herd that two bulls fight alot and therefore drag out the calving season so we put three. Also we wanted they same ratio 20-30 cows per bull.
4. no one in the area AI"S and we have never done but have shopped around. NOt a big thing in our area.

Tatton went down in the beginning leaving us with 2 for 80 cows. And with our short 3 week season for quite a few years alot of cows would have come around at the same time keeping three busy.

tatton has been home waiting for withdrawl and vet aproval to ship.

rentabull came last week and a half ago to clean up the main herd because 18 went down to foot rot but has since recovered.

Not that i am questioning what has been said on both threads please do not think that. Just honest questions form someone who does not know the answers.

18 and merlin, could they be this way because:
1. 18 and merlin winter feed was wild and tame hay, no supplement other than mineral and salt.
renta bull was silage of corn and alfalfa
18 and merlin did not look as bad when they went out, I think merlin was a heiffer bull in the beginning.
2. 18 and merlin did 80 cows on their own in short order, 18 was down for 1 week and a bit during that prime (3 week season) and merlin was on his own.
RAB did 80 cows with 3 other bulls in his owners herd.
3. 18 and merlin's pasture is native and bush with mineral and salt for supplement.
RAB pasture consists of some native but tame pasture as well and turnup grazing and various high protien pasture trials.
BTW we are doing pasture improvement. Just it is a little slower for us.
We will do a better job of picking bulls in the future. Sometimes when you buy a bull that is a virgin, he is so pumped on silage that he looks real good. After he comes off his first season, the silage is not on his body any more and his true look comes out and your not happy with what you got. HMMM. just a thought. not talking about RAB cause he was already with 80 cows and been busy, but poopoohead, merlin were that way.

 

[KNERSIE]

There are many more considerations before you can decide on a bull or even decide if he is likely to adapt and hold condition whilst breeding. A soil analysis will already tell you a lot.

Easy doing cattle are mostly of a definate phenotype, RAB being the only one that even closely approximates that.

I understand why you want a short breeding season, but 3 weeks is leaving a lot to hope. You are correct 2 bulls often fight so much that they lose interest in cows, that's the reason why you need a younger one in the mix, while the two older bulls are fighting to determine dominance , the younger one gets a sneak in.

Always run bulls together in the off season, let them determine dominance well in advance of the breeding season.

Another word of caution: Footrot can often lead to temporary infertility for as long as three months afterwards because semen seldom survive the higher temperatures caused by fever caused by the footrot.

How readily available are bulls for rent in your area? Would it be an option to to stock three bulls for your 100 cows and just line up a rent bull just in case?

Your pasture, is at the moment a given, make sure you have cattle for your pasture and not try to create a pasture for your cattle. That is too expensive and a money losing game in the short run. Not all types works equally well in all environments, get a soil analysis or at the very least the pH and get back to me then I can make better suggestions.

 

[rockridgecattle]

We have had soil analysis and we are so far deficiant especially in N it's not funny. But that has come from generations of not fertilzing or figuring 20#/acre will grow an alfalfa field 30 years old. Changing opinions takes time and patience. We are in the process of working our hay lands. With the price of feritizer we are opting for planting and tilling under a nitrogen producing clover. This is helping. But you can only do so much in a year epecially with old equipment like a steel wheel seeder.
Renting bulls is not an option. People here will not rent, why, because past abuses of running to many cows on lots of land and the bull comes back looking like crap as well as even the thought of dieases.
We managed a 3 week season. It took a few years to do. When we first moved here the bulls were out 24/7/365. When we had controlling interest in the cows we had 120d, then 90d then 60 day.
But with giving one bull to 20-30 cows each in there own pasture we were at
3weeks 75 % done, exhausted, but done
45 d 96% done and then only 2-3 cows left after 45 days. Gotta tell you those three weeks were hard.
Last calving season 2007 we endend up with only 85% done on the 45d mark and 60-65% were done in three weeks and 10 late calvers. That was because two bulls went down. This year well we will just have to wait and see what trouble we get into.
And we will have to shop for better bulls.
We do run our bulls together in the off season. Except for Mr. Poopoo head. but that will change once he is gone August.
Mr PPH was like a queen bee. Especially these last couple of years when he knocked the king bull of his post. Queen bees search out other queens in a hive by calling them. Once a virgin queen hatches they call other queens to them then the other queens are found they fight to the death. The live one is the queen for that hive. This happens if the original queen does not swarm before the virgin hatches.
Mr PPH does the same to insure his dominance to the point of injuring other bulls. This started in 2006 spring when he became king.

 

[TheBullLady]

A three week calving season is VERY extreme, and I would think in a cheap cow market you would be $$ ahead going ahead and extending your season and getting the cows bred back, instead of shipping anything that didn't breed the first time.

That being said, I haven't had more than one bull for over 10 years because the first / last time I had two, the cheap bull ended up hurting my $$ bull, and ended up costing me more. I run a 2+ year old bull on 70 - 90 head, and have been very satisfied with the results. A bull is a major expense, so that at least minimizes the risk of injury.

 

[CowpokeJ]

A three week calving season is VERY extreme, and I would think in a cheap cow market you would be $$ ahead going ahead and extending your season and getting the cows bred back, instead of shipping anything that didn't breed the first time.

That being said, I haven't had more than one bull for over 10 years because the first / last time I had two, the cheap bull ended up hurting my $$ bull, and ended up costing me more. I run a 2+ year old bull on 70 - 90 head, and have been very satisfied with the results. A bull is a major expense, so that at least minimizes the risk of injury.

Do you have a defined breeding season? If so, how long is your season? Do you run all of them at one place? I guess you get everything covered by one bull. The reason I was asking, I just bought a 17 mo bull. I have two pastures and could run spring and fall breeding seasons.