Always a Fish to Fry

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Always a Fish to Fry

Post by Bright Raven » Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:49 am

I bought a heifer at the first Kentucky Simmental Sale. I know the breeder well. He is dead honest. The heifer is bred to CDI Innovator. I ran the planned mating before the sale. The EPDs on this calf are OUTSTANDING.

I noticed yesterday that the area around her vulva and her tail were pasted with some discharge. In fact, it reminded me of a cow that is going through a case of retained placenta. I thought I got a whiff of fetid odor.

This was not good. To say the least, I was disappointed.

I got her in the chute about an hour ago. I examined the pasty discharge. I was happy that it did not have a fetid odor. I opened the vulva. What is normally pink clear mucosa, was red and irritated. I also saw some white drainage that indicated infection thus an accumulation of white blood cells. My thought was that she had vaginitis or had slipped the fetus.

I gloved up and lubed the glove. I palpated her rectally. The calf was positioned perfectly. I bounced it a couple times to confirm the amniotic fluid was intact. All seemed well.

I am curious if anyone else has seen a case of vaginitis at this stage - she is 7 months into gestation.


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Re: Always a Fish to Fry

Post by wbvs58 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:21 pm

Ron, I had one this year that had a discharge similar to yours from about 6 mths, I checked her a couple of times and all seemed well. She was on her 3rd calf, unfortunately she died so did not get to see if all was well at calving. I don't think the death was related to the discharge, I think she was one of two I lost from botulism. Her mother had a vaginal cyst that used to pop in and out when lying down and I thought this might have been something similar.
I hope yours makes it Ron.

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Re: Always a Fish to Fry

Post by Jeanne - Simme Valley » Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:03 am

How is she doing now?
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Re: Always a Fish to Fry

Post by Bright Raven » Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:19 am

Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:03 am
How is she doing now?
She aborted. Came in with placenta hanging out. I palpated her and as is typical with a 7 month gestation, she is going to retain the placenta for a while. Very disappointed because that calf was half the reason I bought her. I talked to the seller. He is disappointed too. It just goes with the territory. Disappointing but it really doesn't change anything.

Clearly, it wasn't vaginitis. She had something going on.

When I got her here, I vaccinated with Covexin 8 and Spirovac VL5. Neither of those would cause abortion. The seller said she was vaccinated with Vira Shield FP 5. So she had not been exposed to MLV.

Note for you Jeanne. The one bred to Lover Boy is doing fine. The more I see her, the more I like her.
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Re: Always a Fish to Fry

Post by Till-Hill » Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:31 am

Seller doing anything or replacing her or your $?

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Re: Always a Fish to Fry

Post by Jeanne - Simme Valley » Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:50 am

The seller would NOT be responsible for the loss. She was sold guaranteed bred - and she was. As a seller, you do not guarantee a live calf. Not saying you can't, but that is not normal.
Sorry about that Ron. Sure sucks. But, now the LB will be even more important. It will be up to that calf to salvage the cost of the 2 females. :D :D
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Re: Always a Fish to Fry

Post by Bright Raven » Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:02 am

Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:50 am
The seller would NOT be responsible for the loss. She was sold guaranteed bred - and she was. As a seller, you do not guarantee a live calf. Not saying you can't, but that is not normal.
Sorry about that Ron. Sure sucks. But, now the LB will be even more important. It will be up to that calf to salvage the cost of the 2 females. :D :D
That is the way I understand it too. I didn't mention compensation and neither did the seller. I only called him for his information. I thought he should know.
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Re: Always a Fish to Fry

Post by Bright Raven » Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:29 am

Noteworthy:

In my conversation with the seller, I ask about his vaccination program. In the course of that conversation, I offered a couple suggestions to improve his program. I know the seller fairly well and I have visited his operation. I know he is comfortable with me making suggestions. He uses Vira Shield to vaccinate for the 5 Fetal Protection viruses (IBR, BVD, BRSV, and PI3). Vira Shield is a killed virus preparation. He only uses Bovi Shield Gold FP 5 when it is required by the terms of the sale. That is a dangerous situation because if you have to vaccinate a bred heifer/cow with a MLV vaccine like Bovi Shield Gold in order to qualify for a sale when the heifer/cow has never previously been exposed to a MLV, there is high risk probability of abortion.
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Re: Always a Fish to Fry

Post by Jeanne - Simme Valley » Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:15 am

BR - you and I are in the same mindset, as far as we both use MLV.
Killed costs more, generally only gives protection for 6 months, must booster first shot or wasting time & money.
Yes, MLV, you have to be careful about pregnant cows or calves nursing pregnant cows.
But, if you get a program set up, you NEVER have to worry about that issue and you have top notch protection.

Your cow may have aborted because she did not have proper protection. Period.

I'm not trying to say that you will never have an abortion if you use MLV, but it sure improves their chances of NOT having one.
I am switching my time schedule. Spring calving cows will get their yearly MLV in the fall; and fall calving cows will get their yearly MLV in the spring. This way, I don't have to worry about getting the shot in them at least 30 days prior to breeding.
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Re: Always a Fish to Fry

Post by Till-Hill » Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:11 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:02 am
Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:50 am
The seller would NOT be responsible for the loss. She was sold guaranteed bred - and she was. As a seller, you do not guarantee a live calf. Not saying you can't, but that is not normal.
Sorry about that Ron. Sure sucks. But, now the LB will be even more important. It will be up to that calf to salvage the cost of the 2 females. :D :D
That is the way I understand it too. I didn't mention compensation and neither did the seller. I only called him for his information. I thought he should know.
When I first started buying registered Simmental females I got to work with some real stand up people that I try to model my seedstock operation with.

And I'm pretty sure this was in the bylaws at one time, and I believe it should be again. I could not find it. Us as seedstock producers need to hold ourselves to a higher standard than buying cattle at the salebarn.

Buying open females the buyer is allowed to try to breed them till calving date would be 28 months old or something like that. Seller then gets 6 months to try to breed her or money back or a replacement female is given to buyer. Had that happen twice.

Pregnant females are to calve with a live calf or salvage value - purchase value will be returned. Had that happen once. And that's why I keep buying from them. They stand behind their cattle. I do the same with mine.

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Re: Always a Fish to Fry

Post by Bright Raven » Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:32 pm

Till-Hill wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:11 pm
Bright Raven wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:02 am
Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:50 am
The seller would NOT be responsible for the loss. She was sold guaranteed bred - and she was. As a seller, you do not guarantee a live calf. Not saying you can't, but that is not normal.
Sorry about that Ron. Sure sucks. But, now the LB will be even more important. It will be up to that calf to salvage the cost of the 2 females. :D :D
That is the way I understand it too. I didn't mention compensation and neither did the seller. I only called him for his information. I thought he should know.
When I first started buying registered Simmental females I got to work with some real stand up people that I try to model my seedstock operation with.

And I'm pretty sure this was in the bylaws at one time, and I believe it should be again. I could not find it. Us as seedstock producers need to hold ourselves to a higher standard than buying cattle at the salebarn.

Buying open females the buyer is allowed to try to breed them till calving date would be 28 months old or something like that. Seller then gets 6 months to try to breed her or money back or a replacement female is given to buyer. Had that happen twice.

Pregnant females are to calve with a live calf or salvage value - purchase value will be returned. Had that happen once. And that's why I keep buying from them. They stand behind their cattle. I do the same with mine.
Did the bylaws established by this seedstock producer apply to private treaty sales?

I agree with you on holding to a high standard. However, the venue that cattle are sold in has a big influence. The highest standard one can expect is from a private treaty sale. I think the expectations go down at large auction sales. Usually the sponsors of the sale set the rules.

In this market, you can get some good bargains at the big auction sales but you have to realize that many who consign to these sales are marketing cattle that they have not sold off the farm in private treaty. In fact, I see some producers dumping some pretty common looking cattle at these big auction sales.
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Re: Always a Fish to Fry

Post by Till-Hill » Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:03 pm

1 was private treaty, 1 was a load and go sale with a sale manager.
State sales I've been involved in years ago followed same rules.
I believe if papers are transfered there should be a breeding and calving guarantee. I for sure will not buy cattle without it no matter how good of a buy they could be.

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Re: Always a Fish to Fry

Post by ccr » Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:40 pm

Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:15 am
BR - you and I are in the same mindset, as far as we both use MLV.
Killed costs more, generally only gives protection for 6 months, must booster first shot or wasting time & money.
Yes, MLV, you have to be careful about pregnant cows or calves nursing pregnant cows.
But, if you get a program set up, you NEVER have to worry about that issue and you have top notch protection.
Jeanne, we use killed vaccine and vaccinate calves at 4 months and again a second vaccination at 5 months. the cows we vaccinate once per year. are you saying that even the cows would need a booster?

our cows are always pregnant or have nursing calves (well hopefully). we usually vaccinate our cows a month or two after calving.
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Re: Always a Fish to Fry

Post by Bright Raven » Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:56 pm

ccr

There are killed virus preparations such as Vira Shield that employ an adjuvant that provide extended immunity for 12 months. The initial vaccination requires a booster but after that you only have to vaccinate annually. The greatest benefit of a MLV preparation is the increased immune response.
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Re: Always a Fish to Fry

Post by ccr » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:23 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:56 pm
ccr

There are killed virus preparations such as Vira Shield that employ an adjuvant that provide extended immunity for 12 months. The initial vaccination requires a booster but after that you only have to vaccinate annually. The greatest benefit of a MLV preparation is the increased immune response.
ok Ron thanks. we are using vira shield 6 + vl5 and covexin 8
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