Fescue

Since the other topic got locked before I could reply let's continue here.
Fire Sweep Ranch you are correct. I have the same issue with the rotational grazing.. In 5 of my 11 paddocks the fescue is headed out. I'm going to bush hog those starting today.

Re: Feeding cows on fescue grass
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Post by pricefarm » Sun May 26, 2019 9:01 pm

"I never know fescue grass was bad for cattle till I came here. That's basically the only grass we have. If a cow can not make it on what I have to feed it then she moves on down the road somewhere else. Iam not going to spend a fortune buying high dollar minerals and other stuff to try and make a cow do what it is suppose to do."

Best comment to date on grazing fescue. I do put out medicated mineral, however.

TennesseeTuxedo said:

Re: Feeding cows on fescue grass
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Post by pricefarm » Sun May 26, 2019 9:01 pm

"I never know fescue grass was bad for cattle till I came here. That's basically the only grass we have. If a cow can not make it on what I have to feed it then she moves on down the road somewhere else. Iam not going to spend a fortune buying high dollar minerals and other stuff to try and make a cow do what it is suppose to do."

Best comment to date on grazing fescue. I do put out medicated mineral, however.

Click to expand...

I have read and respect the comments of Branded and BR on the mineral each uses. But when I look at $35-$40 a bag I just can't make myself do it.
I have 2 cows now that aren't handling the heat well. Both will get culled before winter. Kinda odd that they are both registered Angus.
But actually I have never had a cow that's not Angus seem to suffer from the fescue and heat. Maybe that's another topic.

kenny thomas said:

TennesseeTuxedo said:

Re: Feeding cows on fescue grass
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Post by pricefarm » Sun May 26, 2019 9:01 pm

"I never know fescue grass was bad for cattle till I came here. That's basically the only grass we have. If a cow can not make it on what I have to feed it then she moves on down the road somewhere else. Iam not going to spend a fortune buying high dollar minerals and other stuff to try and make a cow do what it is suppose to do."

Best comment to date on grazing fescue. I do put out medicated mineral, however.

Click to expand...

I have read and respect the comments of Branded and BR on the mineral each uses. But when I look at $35-$40 a bag I just can't make myself do it.
I have 2 cows now that aren't handling the heat well. Both will get culled before winter. Kinda odd that they are both registered Angus.
But actually I have never had a cow that's not Angus seem to suffer from the fescue and heat. Maybe that's another topic.

Click to expand...

Good mineral has far wider health benefits than mitigating fescue toxicity. You are well informed on that.

I would rather pay $34 per 50 pounds and get a 65% uptake than to spend $20 per 50 pounds and get a 15 % uptake. The cheaper mineral in this case is the $34 bag.

Bright Raven said:

kenny thomas said:

TennesseeTuxedo said:

Re: Feeding cows on fescue grass
Report Thanks
Post by pricefarm » Sun May 26, 2019 9:01 pm

"I never know fescue grass was bad for cattle till I came here. That's basically the only grass we have. If a cow can not make it on what I have to feed it then she moves on down the road somewhere else. Iam not going to spend a fortune buying high dollar minerals and other stuff to try and make a cow do what it is suppose to do."

Best comment to date on grazing fescue. I do put out medicated mineral, however.

Click to expand...

I have read and respect the comments of Branded and BR on the mineral each uses. But when I look at $35-$40 a bag I just can't make myself do it.
I have 2 cows now that aren't handling the heat well. Both will get culled before winter. Kinda odd that they are both registered Angus.
But actually I have never had a cow that's not Angus seem to suffer from the fescue and heat. Maybe that's another topic.

Click to expand...

Good mineral has far wider health benefits than mitigating fescue toxicity. You are well informed on that.

I would rather pay $34 per hundred pounds and get a 65% uptake than to spend $20 per hundred pounds and get a 15 % uptake. The cheaper mineral in this case is the $34 bag.

Click to expand...

I did not see it say 100# bags. That changes things a lot. I have never seen any mineral priced per 100#.

kenny thomas said:

Bright Raven said:

kenny thomas said:

I have read and respect the comments of Branded and BR on the mineral each uses. But when I look at $35-$40 a bag I just can't make myself do it.
I have 2 cows now that aren't handling the heat well. Both will get culled before winter. Kinda odd that they are both registered Angus.
But actually I have never had a cow that's not Angus seem to suffer from the fescue and heat. Maybe that's another topic.

Click to expand...

Good mineral has far wider health benefits than mitigating fescue toxicity. You are well informed on that.

I would rather pay $34 per hundred pounds and get a 65% uptake than to spend $20 per hundred pounds and get a 15 % uptake. The cheaper mineral in this case is the $34 bag.

Click to expand...

I did not see it say 100# bags. That changes things a lot. I have never seen any mineral priced per 100#.

Click to expand...

Oops. Sorry. 50 pounds

I am not advocating for a specific brand. I have no stake in that. Just make sure the compounds each element is formulated in can be taken up by the body.

Thanks for the clarification. But at .68 a lb and let's say an intake of .4 lb a day that would get really expensive. Give me your thoughts on $90 per cow per year for mineral. I'm just figuring off the top of my head so excuse any mistake in the figure. But you get what I'm talking about.

kenny thomas said:

Thanks for the clarification. But at .68 a lb and let's say an intake of .4 lb a day that would get really expensive. Give me your thoughts on $90 per cow per year for mineral. I'm just figuring off the top of my head so excuse any mistake in the figure. But you get what I'm talking about.

Click to expand...

What is getting confused is consumption versus bioavailability.

The elements such as copper, zinc, selenium, magnesium, chloride, calcium, and the other elemental atoms that cows need to function do not occur in elemental form in minerals. They come in compounds. Chelated compounds, oxides, sulfates and carbonates. How these elements are formulated by the manufacturer is ESSENTIAL in order to evaluate the mineral. For example if copper comes in a compound the cow cannot use, it will pass right out the anus or in the urine.

Assuming that consumption is .4 pounds per day per cow of a mineral that is 65 % bioavailable versus one that is 15 % bioavailable. The one that is more bioavailable is going to result in much higher blood levels of all the elements.

Intake is what they eat per day. Uptake is what percent of the intake gets into their cells.

Ok, if the uptake changes from 15% to 65% does the intake go down any? Seems it wouldn't take as much to satisfy the need.

kenny thomas said:

Ok, if the uptake changes from 15% to 65% does the intake go down any? Seems it wouldn't take as much to satisfy the need.

Click to expand...

It depends on the palatability of the mineral. Which further complicates the issue. Assuming equal palatability of mineral, consumption will decrease in the one that has higher uptake (bioavalibilty).

So even in the minerals that you and Branded use there may be a different intake?

kenny thomas said:

So even in the minerals that you and Branded use there may be a different intake?

Click to expand...

Yep. He is claiming his has higher uptake but he has not presented data.

If I were to speculate based on the thread where he posted the label, his mineral and VitaFerm have similar uptakes.

In summary, what ever mineral you are using, get your vet to look at the label. Most vets will be familiar with the compounds and he will tell you if your mineral has a decent Uptake quality.

Here is what I have learned, there are very cheap minerals on the market that have high concentrations but low Uptake. The manufacturer's depend on the farmer not knowing. So the farmer buys based on concentration not uptake. It does no good to push a high concentration through a cows GI tract if none of it gets into her cells.

Edited to add: it cost money for the manufacturer to process the mineral into compounds that are bioavailable. Thus, why there are very poor cheap minerals on the market.

I can understand that there is cheap minerals.
Ok a related question. How do you know what is really needed? I rotate pastures and always have really good grass like you do. How do the mineral needs differ from a pasture that's short and abused?

Bright Raven said:

kenny thomas said:

TennesseeTuxedo said:

Re: Feeding cows on fescue grass
Report Thanks
Post by pricefarm » Sun May 26, 2019 9:01 pm

"I never know fescue grass was bad for cattle till I came here. That's basically the only grass we have. If a cow can not make it on what I have to feed it then she moves on down the road somewhere else. Iam not going to spend a fortune buying high dollar minerals and other stuff to try and make a cow do what it is suppose to do."

Best comment to date on grazing fescue. I do put out medicated mineral, however.

Click to expand...

I have read and respect the comments of Branded and BR on the mineral each uses. But when I look at $35-$40 a bag I just can't make myself do it.
I have 2 cows now that aren't handling the heat well. Both will get culled before winter. Kinda odd that they are both registered Angus.
But actually I have never had a cow that's not Angus seem to suffer from the fescue and heat. Maybe that's another topic.

Click to expand...

Good mineral has far wider health benefits than mitigating fescue toxicity. You are well informed on that.

I would rather pay $34 per 50 pounds and get a 65% uptake than to spend $20 per 50 pounds and get a 15 % uptake. The cheaper mineral in this case is the $34 bag.

Click to expand...

Very truthful comment here. The mineral I feed has a 3-4 oz/day consumption, and cost around 32.00 a bag.

The mineral a lot of guys around here feed has a 1-1.5 lb/ day consumption. It cost around 21-22$ a bag. It is a very low quality product with just basic minerals

The 32.00 mineral has garlic and is medicated to help with fescue fever. It is a alll around better product.

With good mineral costing .15$-.20$ a day. Even 1/4 pound of extra gain a day pays for it.

That's pretty simple math in my book, yet a lot of guys around here can't believe how I can spend that much for mineral. Those are the same guys I hear say "a 1800$ bred heifer will pay for her self with two calves"

Bright Raven said:

kenny thomas said:

Thanks for the clarification. But at .68 a lb and let's say an intake of .4 lb a day that would get really expensive. Give me your thoughts on $90 per cow per year for mineral. I'm just figuring off the top of my head so excuse any mistake in the figure. But you get what I'm talking about.

Click to expand...

What is getting confused is consumption versus bioavailability.

The elements such as copper, zinc, selenium, magnesium, chloride, calcium, and the other elemental atoms that cows need to function do not occur in elemental form in minerals. They come in compounds. Chelated compounds, oxides, sulfates and carbonates. How these elements are formulated by the manufacturer is ESSENTIAL in order to evaluate the mineral. For example if copper comes in a compound the cow cannot use, it will pass right out the anus or in the urine.

Assuming that consumption is .4 pounds per day per cow of a mineral that is 65 % bioavailable versus one that is 15 % bioavailable. The one that is more bioavailable is going to result in much higher blood levels of all the elements.

Intake is what they eat per day. Uptake is what percent of the intake gets into their cells.

Click to expand...

Ron, did you list them in the order of greatest bioavailibilty? I believe cheated is the ideal compound, but never remember the order after that; for carbonates, sulfates, and oxides (as far as best bioavailibilty after chelates).

Just throwing this out there as some added information. If anyone wants to give this a test.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/03015521.1984.10421428

bball said:

Bright Raven said:

kenny thomas said:

Thanks for the clarification. But at .68 a lb and let's say an intake of .4 lb a day that would get really expensive. Give me your thoughts on $90 per cow per year for mineral. I'm just figuring off the top of my head so excuse any mistake in the figure. But you get what I'm talking about.

Click to expand...

What is getting confused is consumption versus bioavailability.

The elements such as copper, zinc, selenium, magnesium, chloride, calcium, and the other elemental atoms that cows need to function do not occur in elemental form in minerals. They come in compounds. Chelated compounds, oxides, sulfates and carbonates. How these elements are formulated by the manufacturer is ESSENTIAL in order to evaluate the mineral. For example if copper comes in a compound the cow cannot use, it will pass right out the anus or in the urine.

Assuming that consumption is .4 pounds per day per cow of a mineral that is 65 % bioavailable versus one that is 15 % bioavailable. The one that is more bioavailable is going to result in much higher blood levels of all the elements.

Intake is what they eat per day. Uptake is what percent of the intake gets into their cells.

Click to expand...

Ron, did you list them in the order of greatest bioavailibilty? I believe cheated is the ideal compound, but never remember the order after that; for carbonates, sulfates, and oxides (as far as best bioavailibilty after chelates).

Click to expand...

I did not list them in any order and I didn't list all possibilities. Chelated compounds are touted as being readily available for uptake. In fact, many vitamins are advertised as being chelated for humans. Sulfates are more bioavailable than carbonates or oxides.

kenny thomas said:

I can understand that there is cheap minerals.
Ok a related question. How do you know what is really needed? I rotate pastures and always have really good grass like you do. How do the mineral needs differ from a pasture that's short and abused?

Click to expand...

To determine what mineral or minerals your cow actually needs would be difficult. You would first have to remove all minerals and supplements you have available to your herd. Then after an appropriate hiatus, you would have to do liver biopsies.

If you had several hundred cows, that would be an economical plan. Then you could afford to have a custom mineral made just for your needs. On operations the size of yours and mine, it will not pencil out.

I have my doubts if free choice mineral is really needed, it's a salesman job to sell. And if you administer MultiMin 90 a few times per year I can't see where free choice minerals are needed. There's no doubt some cows eat more mineral than others, and I also think some cows just don't eat mineral.

True Grit Farms said:

I have my doubts if free choice mineral is really needed, it's a salesman job to sell. And if you administer MultiMin 90 a few times per year I can't see where free choice minerals are needed. There's no doubt some cows eat more mineral than others, and I also think some cows just don't eat mineral.

Click to expand...

You don't need to eat, they could just put you on an IV. ;-)

I guess you could do that but I have never heard it recommended even by animal scientist or veterinarians who have no stake in the mineral industry.

I see cows that seem to be at the mineral feeder more than other cows. But I don't spend enough time to conclude that some cows don't eat any mineral.