A question for commercial guys.

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Jeanne - Simme Valley
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Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:31 pm

EPD's are just a TOOL.
You can have consistency using different bulls, IF you have specific criteria's in choosing bulls.
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Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby wbvs58 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:54 pm

gcreekrch wrote:
wbvs58 wrote:My aim is to use 3 or 4 AI bulls with the attributes I am after and if their calves are shaping up OK I will aim to use that bull for 3 years and then move on. I see your point, you are not after over the top performance more reliability in the traits you are after.

Ken


Why not breed them all to one sire and then take those daughters to another single sire. Makes for far more consistancy. I think it's mostly the purebred breeders seeking the "over the top" sires, hoping they can reproduce for bigger dollars.


If that single sire doesn't produce what I am after I have all my eggs in the one basket. Might be worth considering just doing one round of AI and then using a home grown bull to blend my cow families along with a bit of in breeding. Might be something I have overlooked with aiming to get 100% AI bred, would make life a lot simpler.

The reason I have tried to get 100 % AI bred come to think of it was that calves born to unproven homebred sires did not get numbers against them for many traits until they were measured and recorded and even then there would be gaps in their figures in sale catalogues. With changes in calculating EBV's and the use of genomics those gaps are now all filled in. My reasoning might be a bit shallow however when selling in a multivendor sale you are competing against the next breeder for the available money so physical appearance and the appearance of the catalogue do count. I now sell in partnerships with another local breeder who has very similar views to me and we work together very well and don't compete.

Ken
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Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:56 am

The convenience of using a natural cover is immense. We used a homegrown bull for cleanup for a few years. We would AI for 42 days, then turn the bull in for 21-24 days. He can catch the "screw ups" easier.
But, I am back doing 100% AI.
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Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby Bright Raven » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:00 am

wbvs58 wrote:
gcreekrch wrote:
wbvs58 wrote:My aim is to use 3 or 4 AI bulls with the attributes I am after and if their calves are shaping up OK I will aim to use that bull for 3 years and then move on. I see your point, you are not after over the top performance more reliability in the traits you are after.

Ken


Why not breed them all to one sire and then take those daughters to another single sire. Makes for far more consistancy. I think it's mostly the purebred breeders seeking the "over the top" sires, hoping they can reproduce for bigger dollars.


If that single sire doesn't produce what I am after I have all my eggs in the one basket. Might be worth considering just doing one round of AI and then using a home grown bull to blend my cow families along with a bit of in breeding. Might be something I have overlooked with aiming to get 100% AI bred, would make life a lot simpler.

The reason I have tried to get 100 % AI bred come to think of it was that calves born to unproven homebred sires did not get numbers against them for many traits until they were measured and recorded and even then there would be gaps in their figures in sale catalogues. With changes in calculating EBV's and the use of genomics those gaps are now all filled in. My reasoning might be a bit shallow however when selling in a multivendor sale you are competing against the next breeder for the available money so physical appearance and the appearance of the catalogue do count. I now sell in partnerships with another local breeder who has very similar views to me and we work together very well and don't compete.

Ken


Dave, I like what Ken said.
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Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby gizmom » Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:01 am

We use different AI sires yet if you look through our pedigrees your going to find a genetic pattern. It is possible to use a large number of AI sires as long as you stick to your genetic plan. We AI everything one time then turn the bulls in. We use four bulls all are home raised, but one was purchased as an embryo so I can’t take credit for breeding him just for raising him.

Ken we have found doing the dna test on all our bulls improves the gap between the AI group and natural service sired group.

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Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby gcreekrch » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:16 am

wbvs58 wrote:
gcreekrch wrote:
wbvs58 wrote:My aim is to use 3 or 4 AI bulls with the attributes I am after and if their calves are shaping up OK I will aim to use that bull for 3 years and then move on. I see your point, you are not after over the top performance more reliability in the traits you are after.

Ken


Why not breed them all to one sire and then take those daughters to another single sire. Makes for far more consistancy. I think it's mostly the purebred breeders seeking the "over the top" sires, hoping they can reproduce for bigger dollars.


If that single sire doesn't produce what I am after I have all my eggs in the one basket. Might be worth considering just doing one round of AI and then using a home grown bull to blend my cow families along with a bit of in breeding. Might be something I have overlooked with aiming to get 100% AI bred, would make life a lot simpler.

The reason I have tried to get 100 % AI bred come to think of it was that calves born to unproven homebred sires did not get numbers against them for many traits until they were measured and recorded and even then there would be gaps in their figures in sale catalogues. With changes in calculating EBV's and the use of genomics those gaps are now all filled in. My reasoning might be a bit shallow however when selling in a multivendor sale you are competing against the next breeder for the available money so physical appearance and the appearance of the catalogue do count. I now sell in partnerships with another local breeder who has very similar views to me and we work together very well and don't compete.

Ken


I guess that is why you would really do intensive research before breeding. If you have 25 cows or less, I see no reason to breed them to multiple sires. Bigger herds, yes.

Eggs in several baskets can fall and break too.

Interesting the response considering the title of the thread........ :D
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Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby Stocker Steve » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:24 pm

The big trendy bull studs pen their sale prospects by AI sire, so you can see how they compare.
The big trendy pull studs feel they need to switch to new AI studs every couple years to stay ahead of the pack.
Not my kind of deal, but others are happy to pay up.

It will be interesting how the bull market shifts with the DNA testing.
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Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby wbvs58 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:37 pm

gizmom wrote:We use different AI sires yet if you look through our pedigrees your going to find a genetic pattern. It is possible to use a large number of AI sires as long as you stick to your genetic plan. We AI everything one time then turn the bulls in. We use four bulls all are home raised, but one was purchased as an embryo so I can’t take credit for breeding him just for raising him.

Ken we have found doing the dna test on all our bulls improves the gap between the AI group and natural service sired group.

Gizmom


Yes Gizmon, I have been using it quiet a bit and the good thing about it is the figures get recalculated and updated as more information on the genetic markers becomes available or any other data recorded with each run of what we call breedplan every 2 weeks with the new single step calculations.

Creek, it just goes to show those producing the bulls are taking note of what the end user is looking for.

Ken
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Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby gcreekrch » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:48 pm

wbvs58 wrote:
gizmom wrote:We use different AI sires yet if you look through our pedigrees your going to find a genetic pattern. It is possible to use a large number of AI sires as long as you stick to your genetic plan. We AI everything one time then turn the bulls in. We use four bulls all are home raised, but one was purchased as an embryo so I can’t take credit for breeding him just for raising him.

Ken we have found doing the dna test on all our bulls improves the gap between the AI group and natural service sired group.

Gizmom


Yes Gizmon, I have been using it quiet a bit and the good thing about it is the figures get recalculated and updated as more information on the genetic markers becomes available or any other data recorded with each run of what we call breedplan every 2 weeks with the new single step calculations.

Creek, it just goes to show those producing the bulls are taking note of what the end user is looking for.

Ken


Can we change that to "some"? The show ring still plays a large influence.
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Re: A question for commercial guys.

Postby R V » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:40 am

Very good discussion, I am trying to find more line bred maternal lines that work on fescue and then am planning on purchasing terminal type bulls as my herd grows larger.

I would also like to purchase a few purebred Charolais cows. If anyone knows of a good elderly Charolais breeder (Breeds good functional cows that are raised on fescue.)that is thinking about getting out of the business or downsizing, I would be interested. Please send me a pm.
Thanks!
Ron
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