MLV Vaccines

A vet in our general area was asked to give a presentation on vaccinations at our annual field day event.  She did a great job.

The lecture was presented as if ALL MLV vaccines present a risk of abortion if pregnant cows that have not previously been exposed are vaccinated with a MLV vaccine.  I ask her if she intended to represent ALL MLV vaccines as a risk.  Her explanation is the same one I got from the manager of the Mayslick Mill.  They don't believe most cattle producers recognize which MLV vaccines present a risk of abortion from the ones that do not pose a risk.  I appreciate their concern but it is with regret.  Ron, at the Mayslick Mill, does not even stock Bovi-Shield Gold because they are concerned producers will administer it improperly.  The shame is that only the IBR and BVD components of any FP MLV vaccine are associated with abortion.  To further the shame, there are many other MLV vaccines such as Calf Guard that have Coronavirus and Rotavirus in an MLV preparation that are not associated with abortions.

But doesnt Inforce3 protect against IBR and it says safe for,pregnant cattle

kenny thomas":qjf4iiye said:

But doesnt Inforce3 protect against IBR and it says safe for,pregnant cattle

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Inforce 3 does include strains of MLV that cause Infectious Bovine Rhinotracheitis.  According to the manufacturer,  the MLV stains for IBR do not shed.  This is based on intranasal administration. So it can be used on healthy pregnant cows.

That is not true of Bovi-Shield Gold FP 5 products which are injectable MLV preparations. Unless the cow has been previously vaccinated with a MLV FP 5.

For my own peace of mind, I like to vaccinate for FP 5 viruses when the cows are open after calving and before breeding.

"As demonstrated in three separate safety studies, INFORCE 3 is safe for use in all types, ages and classes of cattle. INFORCE 3 was demonstrated safe for use in very young, high-stress calves, weaned and high-stress stocker calves, and pregnant heifers and cows."
Zoetis Website

Inforce 3:

In Zoetis efficacy studies, all calves vaccinated with INFORCE 3 survived a severe BRSV challenge in which all unvaccinated controls died.1,2
The studies also demonstrated that those calves vaccinated with INFORCE 3 showed fewer lung lesions and reduced viral shedding.
Additionally, INFORCE 3 was shown to help prevent respiratory disease caused by IBR and PI3, and reduce IBR and PI3 viral shedding.3,4,5
Zoetis

Kenny,

I just had a conversation with the customer service vet at Zoetis.  I ask him why Inforce 3 does not require the same precaution that other IBR MLV Vaccines such as Bovi Shield Gold.   The answer: The IBR MLV component of Inforce 3 is a heat sensitive strain that remains in the respiratory system and although IT CAN BE SHED, it does not elicit an infectious body reaction that has been known to cause abortions as with other IBR MLV preparations.  The Inforce 3 IBR preparation is truly unique.

Good info, thanks. I use it on everything i bring in and also my own.

Do you give it in one nostril or two?

Stocker Steve":24tif18r said:

Do you give it in one nostril or two?

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One. They are getting it approved for either way. Efficacy is the same

BR,
In nearly 30 years of diagnostic medicine, almost every case of IBR-induced abortion that I've ever seen was 'vaccine-associated'... the producers had vaccinated pregnant cattle with a MLV product and caused an abortion 'storm' of sorts.
I might have seen one case of field-strain IBR abortion while I was in my pathology residency, but every one since has been directly linked to vaccination with a MLV.
Granted, with some of those products, IF the cow/heifer has received two doses administered PROPERLY, and in the correct time frame, the likelihood is that their fetus will be protected against exposure to 'field-strain' virus... as well as vaccine-strains, if they are administered.

However, I certainly understand and appreciate the fact that there's a whole lot of folks out there who have the propensity to screw up and give a MLV to cattle that are not adequately pre-vaccinated. I sure see enough misuse and recommendations for misuse of antibiotics on this and similar boards, and many of the folks here are better informed than a lot of producers out there... and, if they're taking their animal health advice (as many do) from the folks working at TSC or Southern States...or Heather Smith Thomas...well, it's potentially pretty dangerous.

I guess that's one benefit of raising your own replacements. All heifers are vaccinated with MLV at weaning and agin at RTS time. We have never had issues with an abortion from subsequent administrations of it.

Lucky_P":2mmmeq5f said:

BR,
In nearly 30 years of diagnostic medicine, almost every case of IBR-induced abortion that I've ever seen was 'vaccine-associated'... the producers had vaccinated pregnant cattle with a MLV product and caused an abortion 'storm' of sorts.
I might have seen one case of field-strain IBR abortion while I was in my pathology residency, but every one since has been directly linked to vaccination with a MLV.
Granted, with some of those products, IF the cow/heifer has received two doses administered PROPERLY, and in the correct time frame, the likelihood is that their fetus will be protected against exposure to 'field-strain' virus... as well as vaccine-strains, if they are administered.

However, I certainly understand and appreciate the fact that there's a whole lot of folks out there who have the propensity to screw up and give a MLV to cattle that are not adequately pre-vaccinated. I sure see enough misuse and recommendations for misuse of antibiotics on this and similar boards, and many of the folks here are better informed than a lot of producers out there... and, if they're taking their animal health advice (as many do) from the folks working at TSC or Southern States...or Heather Smith Thomas...well, it's potentially pretty dangerous.

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Lucky,

Let's point out that the primary purpose of Inforce 3 is not for fetal protection but for respiratory protection.  I can see where your reply could be read and someone may think, 'Well, if IBR is such a low threat,  why vaccinate at all?"  Inforce 3 is getting most of its use by producers wanting to protect newborns, feeders and stockers from respiratory disease. I will pass on that he said the greater benefit of Inforce 3 is the BRSV protection.

Having said that, I appreciate why there is concern for the misuse of the MLV IBR and BVD vaccines although apparently Inforce 3 is not one that poses a risk of abortion.

The treated strain of IBR used in the vaccine is heat sensitive to temperatures above 97 degrees Fahrenheit.   Which is the lower temperature at which the lungs maintain.  According to Zoetis, the higher systemic temperatures eliminates the abortion threat.  This strain is proprietary to Zoetis.

Why risk using a MLV? I've seen nothing but the down sides of using MLV, including some deformed calves. And yes I know a MLV doesn't cause deformities in calves supposedly. But once we stopped using MLV we haven't had another deformed calf. I'll use redneck logic myself around here and never use a MLV again. This will probably come back to bite me, but we vaccinate with Calvary 9 or Covexin 8 with tetanus and Triangle 10. I can count the number of sick calves or cows we've had on one hand. I'll leave the sick cows to those that like to doctor and pet them.....hopefully.

True Grit Farms":34t3gplz said:

Why risk using a MLV? I've seen nothing but the down sides of using MLV, including some deformed calves. And yes I know a MLV doesn't cause deformities in calves supposedly. But once we stopped using MLV we haven't had another deformed calf. I'll use redneck logic myself around here and never use a MLV again. This will probably come back to bite me, but we vaccinate with Calvary 9 or Covexin 8 with tetanus and Triangle 10. I can count the number of sick calves or cows we've had on one hand. I'll leave the sick cows to those that like to doctor and pet them.....hopefully.

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Actually, your logic is fine. If I where you, I would be more concerned that Triangle 10 does not include the Leptospira borgpetersenii serovar Hardjo Bovis (HD) than not using an MLV. Leptospirosis is caused primarily by the HD serovar and Georgia has if I remember correctly a high incidence of HD leptospirosis.

Bright Raven":2zt1tk7x said:

True Grit Farms":2zt1tk7x said:

Why risk using a MLV? I've seen nothing but the down sides of using MLV, including some deformed calves. And yes I know a MLV doesn't cause deformities in calves supposedly. But once we stopped using MLV we haven't had another deformed calf. I'll use redneck logic myself around here and never use a MLV again. This will probably come back to bite me, but we vaccinate with Calvary 9 or Covexin 8 with tetanus and Triangle 10. I can count the number of sick calves or cows we've had on one hand. I'll leave the sick cows to those that like to doctor and pet them.....hopefully.

Click to expand...

Actually, your logic is fine. If I where you, I would be more concerned that Triangle 10 does not include the Leptospira borgpetersenii serovar Hardjo Bovis (HD) than not using an MLV. Leptospirosis is caused primarily by the HD serovar and Georgia has if I remember correctly a high incidence of HD leptospirosis.

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Leptospirosis is primarily a problem a dairy might in counter. Leptospirosis is very rare to nonexistent in beef cattle in Georgia or anywhere else for that matter. The vets are pushing drugs the same as doctors, for kick backs.
"The vaccine is cheap enough you might as well give it" I've heard that more than once. We have Dr Lee Jones from UGA coming out Thursday great guy and great teacher, but a drug pusher all the same. I don't think pumping cattle full of vaccines is helping anything but making more problems down the road. The more we use the more they'll make, it's a big business after all.

True Grit Farms":21fiz5ti said:

Bright Raven":21fiz5ti said:

True Grit Farms":21fiz5ti said:

Why risk using a MLV? I've seen nothing but the down sides of using MLV, including some deformed calves. And yes I know a MLV doesn't cause deformities in calves supposedly. But once we stopped using MLV we haven't had another deformed calf. I'll use redneck logic myself around here and never use a MLV again. This will probably come back to bite me, but we vaccinate with Calvary 9 or Covexin 8 with tetanus and Triangle 10. I can count the number of sick calves or cows we've had on one hand. I'll leave the sick cows to those that like to doctor and pet them.....hopefully.

Click to expand...

Actually, your logic is fine. If I where you, I would be more concerned that Triangle 10 does not include the Leptospira borgpetersenii serovar Hardjo Bovis (HD) than not using an MLV. Leptospirosis is caused primarily by the HD serovar and Georgia has if I remember correctly a high incidence of HD leptospirosis.

Click to expand...

Leptospirosis is primarily a problem a dairy might in counter. Leptospirosis is very rare to nonexistent in beef cattle in Georgia or anywhere else for that matter. The vets are pushing drugs the same as doctors, for kick backs.
"The vaccine is cheap enough you might as well give it" I've heard that more than once. We have Dr Lee Jones from UGA coming out Thursday great guy and great teacher, but a drug pusher all the same. I don't think pumping cattle full of vaccines is helping anything but making more problems down the road. The more we use the more they'll make, it's a big business after all.

Click to expand...

Here is a reference that contradicts your statement it is rare. There are many others. Google prevalence of Leptospira in cattle. Worldwide it is considered one of the more common causes of abortion in both dairy and beef. BTW: this article addresses the HB serovar.

A recent study (Wikse, et al Bov. Pract. 2007 pp. 15-23) shed some light on the prevalence of various leptospires in beef cattle in the U.S. The study examined beef cow/calf operations in 6 states (CA, FL, MS, MO, SD, and TX). The author found 42% of the 67 herds examined had results compatible with infection by L. borgpetersenii serovar Hardjo (hardjo-bovis). The range of prevalence in herds was from 8% (SD) to 58% (MS). In 5 of the states the prevalence ranged from 38% to 58%. These results highlighted the fact that this serovar was more common than expected. Currently, there is only one vaccine in the U.S. that contains this serovar (Spirovac®; Pfizer AH).

http://veterinarycalendar.dvm360.com/le ... roceedings

Regarding marketing. I don't disagree.

True Grit Farms":2tbb7vy4 said:

Bright Raven":2tbb7vy4 said:

True Grit Farms":2tbb7vy4 said:

Why risk using a MLV? I've seen nothing but the down sides of using MLV, including some deformed calves. And yes I know a MLV doesn't cause deformities in calves supposedly. But once we stopped using MLV we haven't had another deformed calf. I'll use redneck logic myself around here and never use a MLV again. This will probably come back to bite me, but we vaccinate with Calvary 9 or Covexin 8 with tetanus and Triangle 10. I can count the number of sick calves or cows we've had on one hand. I'll leave the sick cows to those that like to doctor and pet them.....hopefully.

Click to expand...

Actually, your logic is fine. If I where you, I would be more concerned that Triangle 10 does not include the Leptospira borgpetersenii serovar Hardjo Bovis (HD) than not using an MLV. Leptospirosis is caused primarily by the HD serovar and Georgia has if I remember correctly a high incidence of HD leptospirosis.

Click to expand...

Leptospirosis is primarily a problem a dairy might in counter. Leptospirosis is very rare to nonexistent in beef cattle in Georgia or anywhere else for that matter. The vets are pushing drugs the same as doctors, for kick backs.
"The vaccine is cheap enough you might as well give it" I've heard that more than once. We have Dr Lee Jones from UGA coming out Thursday great guy and great teacher, but a drug pusher all the same. I don't think pumping cattle full of vaccines is helping anything but making more problems down the road. The more we use the more they'll make, it's a big business after all.

Click to expand...

Drug companies have never been my favourite people. They have too much of a vested interest to come up with correct results in their trials.

Ken

wbvs58":38i05f4q said:

True Grit Farms":38i05f4q said:

Bright Raven":38i05f4q said:

Actually, your logic is fine. If I where you, I would be more concerned that Triangle 10 does not include the Leptospira borgpetersenii serovar Hardjo Bovis (HD) than not using an MLV. Leptospirosis is caused primarily by the HD serovar and Georgia has if I remember correctly a high incidence of HD leptospirosis.

Click to expand...

Leptospirosis is primarily a problem a dairy might in counter. Leptospirosis is very rare to nonexistent in beef cattle in Georgia or anywhere else for that matter. The vets are pushing drugs the same as doctors, for kick backs.
"The vaccine is cheap enough you might as well give it" I've heard that more than once. We have Dr Lee Jones from UGA coming out Thursday great guy and great teacher, but a drug pusher all the same. I don't think pumping cattle full of vaccines is helping anything but making more problems down the road. The more we use the more they'll make, it's a big business after all.

Click to expand...

Drug companies have never been my favourite people. They have too much of a vested interest to come up with correct results in their trials.

Ken

Click to expand...

Watch out!!!  My son and daughter-in-law both work for drug companies.

Diagnosis is difficult at best. There are a large number of common diseases that result in abortion or infertility in cattle. Some of these conditions are BVD, IBR, Neospora, EBA (foothill abortion), Campylobacter, Trichomonosis, selenium deficiency, just to name some of the more common causes. Additionally, a definitive diagnosis of leptospirosis is difficult due to the fastidious nature of the organism and the fact that the bovine fetus dies well before the time it is expelled during abortion. The aborted fetus is characteristically autolysed, icteric, and edematous at presentation. There is often pneumonia, placentitis, and renal tubular necrosis. Occasionally, the leptospires can be demonstrated in the fetal tissues (kidney) by sliver stains, or fluorescent antibody techniques. Once in a while, the leptospires can be cultured—but this is an unusual situation. Diagnosis is usually based on serologic data and the elimination of other causes. Titers to Leptospira pomona may be greater than 1:12,800 in affected cows; however, titers to Leptospira hardjo-prajitno rarely exceed 1:3200 in cows that have aborted. While acute and convalescent sera are preferable samples, it is often difficult to accomplish in the practical setting.

What does this mean to you Raven? To me it sounds like they don't really know what caused the abortion, but they can spit numbers out to make it look like there's a problem caused by lepto. The fact is my neighbors that do nothing for their cows have about the same number of problems as we do...little to none. I try to sell my neighbors on Covexin 8 or Calvary 9 for black leg, but they say why, we've never had any problems.

Definitive diagnosis for abortion/stillbirth workups is LOW... maybe 25% of them, we come up with a plausible explanation... and that includes dystocias... but I only get placenta in maybe 10% of those cases... and of those with placenta submitted, 50% or more have a placental lesion - and NOTHING in the fetus. So... if all I get is fetus(no placenta, no maternal serum)... I know that the likelihood that I'm gonna make a definitive diagnosis is pretty danged low - so... I approach them with the thought of 'ruling out' the things that the producer and veterinarian can likely do anything about.

We very rarely diagnose Leptospira abortions here in western KY. Can't recall the last one I saw... more likely here to see Lepto manifested as weak calves that die 7-10 days out. BUT! with Lepto hardjo-bovis, it's not a late-term abortion deal, it's an early embryonic death... cows/heifers just keep re-cycling on a regular 17-23 day cycle... eventually, after 3-4 cycles or more, they'll probably stick and carry to term, but if you've got a 45 or 60 day breeding period... they're gonna come up open.

When the first HB vaccines came out, I was, like, "That's a vaccine looking for a disease." I didn't believe it was necessary.
However, I've changed my tune. I do think it's out there in a lot of beef herds...pretty sure I had it.
Proving it is hard to do and expensive... easier and cheaper just to vaccinate and move on.

True Grit Farms":3f3n4jas said:

Diagnosis is difficult at best. There are a large number of common diseases that result in abortion or infertility in cattle. Some of these conditions are BVD, IBR, Neospora, EBA (foothill abortion), Campylobacter, Trichomonosis, selenium deficiency, just to name some of the more common causes. Additionally, a definitive diagnosis of leptospirosis is difficult due to the fastidious nature of the organism and the fact that the bovine fetus dies well before the time it is expelled during abortion. The aborted fetus is characteristically autolysed, icteric, and edematous at presentation. There is often pneumonia, placentitis, and renal tubular necrosis. Occasionally, the leptospires can be demonstrated in the fetal tissues (kidney) by sliver stains, or fluorescent antibody techniques. Once in a while, the leptospires can be cultured—but this is an unusual situation. Diagnosis is usually based on serologic data and the elimination of other causes. Titers to Leptospira pomona may be greater than 1:12,800 in affected cows; however, titers to Leptospira hardjo-prajitno rarely exceed 1:3200 in cows that have aborted. While acute and convalescent sera are preferable samples, it is often difficult to accomplish in the practical setting.

What does this mean to you Raven? To me it sounds like they don't really know what caused the abortion, but they can spit numbers out to make it look like there's a problem caused by lepto. The fact is my neighbors that do nothing for their cows have about the same number of problems as we do...little to none. I try to sell my neighbors on Covexin 8 or Calvary 9 for black leg, but they say why, we've never had any problems.

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It says this: "There are a large number of common diseases that result in abortion or infertility in cattle. Some of these conditions are BVD, IBR, Neospora, EBA (foothill abortion), Campylobacter, Trichomonosis, selenium deficiency..."  Another is Leptospira.  Particularly,  the Hardjo and Pomona serovars and more recently discovered, the Hardjo-bovis serovar.

Regarding your neighbor,  who cares what he does?  His cows, his risk, his decision.  Same goes for any producer.  I see the same thing here.  But I also know many of these producers drag a lot of dead animals to the back pastures.  Adrian Craig has 300 cows.  Operates within a hoot and a holler from me.  He freely admits he is willing to take a 10 % loss in animals per annum.  His cows take care of themselves.  He cannot find them half the time.

The anecdotal evidence that your neighbor does just fine without vaccination provides very little useful information IMO.