Cotton is Racist

TexasBred":x6t8ukft said:

Help me out Ryder. Did Robert E. Lee forsake his values when he chose to fight for the CSA instead of the USA even though he was against secession as well as slavery (supposedly)?? Did he void that oath he took as an officer in the army of the USA to " support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed"?????? Where was his truth and honor??

Click to expand...

TB, I think you are using a much new version of the oath. Its changed a lot since then but I agree with the gist of your question and you make a good point. I don't know the answer but I think a lot of this stuff gets jaded by time. For instance, we all admit slavery today is wrong but this was a different time and so is it really fair to apply our standards to that of a different era?

Also, you could look at things another way and that is if you have a commander telling you to do something that you know is wrong it is your duty as an officer NOT to do it. Granted, this is a slippery slope but we condemned plenty of Nazi SS soldiers to death who used the defense that they only killed Jews because they were ordered to. So if you put yourself in Lee's shoes you'll see he was faced with quite the dilemma because he was being told he would have to go and kill members of his family and his neighbors. Is this any different than the plight of a German soldier? Seems like a bad situation to be in whatever the answer.

Also, after we became traitors and declared our independence from England soldiers in the thirteen colonies swore an oath similar to this one.

I______, ________; do swear (or affirm) that I renounce and refuse all allegiance to George the Third, king of Great Britain, his heirs and successors; and that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania as a free and independent State, and that I will not at any time do or cause to be done any matter or thing that will be prejudicial or injurious to the freedom and independence thereof, as declared by Congress, and also, that I will discover and make known to some one justice of the peace of said State all treasons or traitorous conspiracies which I now know or hereafter shall know to be formed against this or any of the United States of America."

Click to expand...

According to this oath, it would seem the emphasis of one's loyalty would be to the state first then to any of the other states which comprised the United States. I believe this was the root cause of the war.

I picked cotton till I was old enough to join the Marine Corps ( gave up a free ride to TAMU.....dumb decision) why is it people want to make a big thing out of picking cotton is racists, ( who do they think caught and sold their brothers. White man could not catch them so the fastest man caught the slower guys and sold them ....... hello .....it was and still all about money. And now we need a black power month in the NFL (November) to forget all those who have been ......yeah right .....give me a breakn

"The more things change, the more they remain the same. With the fall of communism, liberalism found itself looking around for a raison d'etre and it found it in the ethnic prejudices that had informed its dominant class since the inception of the country. In Boldt we have an uncanny substantiation of the position of Franjo Tudjman. Liberalism in the American empire, like communism in Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union, was just a cover for ethnic hegemony, and as in Croatia and Northern Ireland, Catholcism was an ethnic designation in America. It was the one group which stubbornly refused to be absorbed by the liberal regime, and so it had to be punished and brought into line by a kind of what we would have to call ethnic intimidation."

http://www.culturewars.com/CultureWars/ ... nsing.html

f1tiger":1jxmaeiz said:

I picked cotton till I was old enough to join the Marine Corps ( gave up a free ride to TAMU.....dumb decision) why is it people want to make a big thing out of picking cotton is racists, ( who do they think caught and sold their brothers. White man could not catch them so the fastest man caught the slower guys and sold them ....... hello .....it was and still all about money. And now we need a black power month in the NFL (November) to forget all those who have been ......yeah right .....give me a breakn

Click to expand...

Where did you come up with this shyt?? A chase through the jungle and the slowest runner loses. :lol2: :lol2: Many of these people were prisoners that were captured in tribal warefare and sold to slave traders by their enemies. And in reality it has nothing to do with cotton, sugar cane, rice or anything else.

TexasBred":gkpirzc1 said:

f1tiger":gkpirzc1 said:

I picked cotton till I was old enough to join the Marine Corps ( gave up a free ride to TAMU.....dumb decision) why is it people want to make a big thing out of picking cotton is racists, ( who do they think caught and sold their brothers. White man could not catch them so the fastest man caught the slower guys and sold them ....... hello .....it was and still all about money. And now we need a black power month in the NFL (November) to forget all those who have been ......yeah right .....give me a breakn

Click to expand...

Where did you come up with this shyt?? A chase through the jungle and the slowest runner loses. :lol2: :lol2: Many of these people were prisoners that were captured in tribal warefare and sold to slave traders by their enemies. And in reality it has nothing to do with cotton, sugar cane, rice or anything else.

Click to expand...

Yep. Commerce in humans off the continent of Africa was not as simple as running down natives in the bush. Lots of nations were involved and black Africans were going to most of the major ports on the globe to be traded or sold.

Attempts to place the blame back on Africans is shameful. The subject is vastly more complex than that.

Bright Raven":azv3xk1y said:

TexasBred":azv3xk1y said:

f1tiger":azv3xk1y said:

I picked cotton till I was old enough to join the Marine Corps ( gave up a free ride to TAMU.....dumb decision) why is it people want to make a big thing out of picking cotton is racists, ( who do they think caught and sold their brothers. White man could not catch them so the fastest man caught the slower guys and sold them ....... hello .....it was and still all about money. And now we need a black power month in the NFL (November) to forget all those who have been ......yeah right .....give me a breakn

Click to expand...

Where did you come up with this shyt?? A chase through the jungle and the slowest runner loses. :lol2: :lol2: Many of these people were prisoners that were captured in tribal warefare and sold to slave traders by their enemies. And in reality it has nothing to do with cotton, sugar cane, rice or anything else.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Yep. Commerce in humans off the continent of Africa was not as simple as running down natives in the bush. Lots of nations were involved and black Africans were going to most of the major ports on the globe to be traded or sold.

Attempts to place the blame back on Africans is shameful. The subject is vastly more complex than that.

It all started in Africa by Africans, complex is just a excuse for those that can't or won't face facts.

True Grit Farms":1sot4yz1 said:

Bright Raven":1sot4yz1 said:

TexasBred":1sot4yz1 said:

Where did you come up with this shyt?? A chase through the jungle and the slowest runner loses. :lol2: :lol2: Many of these people were prisoners that were captured in tribal warefare and sold to slave traders by their enemies. And in reality it has nothing to do with cotton, sugar cane, rice or anything else.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Yep. Commerce in humans off the continent of Africa was not as simple as running down natives in the bush. Lots of nations were involved and black Africans were going to most of the major ports on the globe to be traded or sold.

Attempts to place the blame back on Africans is shameful. The subject is vastly more complex than that.

It all started in Africa by Africans, complex is just a excuse for those that can't or won't face facts.

Click to expand...

Slavery in its multiple forms has existed both in Africa and every civilization since humans have walked the earth.

My point is simple: Attempts to place the blame is futile. Slavery is a product of humanity not any single race. I make that point in response to TB's post that the practice of slavery is not simply tribes in Africa running down those who could not run faster. It was a form of worldwide commerce in human lives.

Bright Raven":1qf3oh0h said:

Slavery in its multiple forms has existed both in Africa and every civilization since humans have walked the earth.

My point is simple: Attempts to place the blame is futile. Slavery is a product of humanity not any single race. I make that point in response to TB's post that the practice of slavery is not simply tribes in Africa running down those who could not run faster. It was a form of worldwide commerce in human lives.

Click to expand...

IS.

Jogeephus":bfxs6y9m said:

TB, I think you are using a much new version of the oath. Its changed a lot since then but I agree with the gist of your question and you make a good point. I don't know the answer but I think a lot of this stuff gets jaded by time. For instance, we all admit slavery today is wrong but this was a different time and so is it really fair to apply our standards to that of a different era?

Also, you could look at things another way and that is if you have a commander telling you to do something that you know is wrong it is your duty as an officer NOT to do it. Granted, this is a slippery slope but we condemned plenty of Nazi SS soldiers to death who used the defense that they only killed Jews because they were ordered to. So if you put yourself in Lee's shoes you'll see he was faced with quite the dilemma because he was being told he would have to go and kill members of his family and his neighbors. Is this any different than the plight of a German soldier? Seems like a bad situation to be in whatever the answer.

Also, after we became traitors and declared our independence from England soldiers in the thirteen colonies swore an oath similar to this one.

I______, ________; do swear (or affirm) that I renounce and refuse all allegiance to George the Third, king of Great Britain, his heirs and successors; and that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania as a free and independent State, and that I will not at any time do or cause to be done any matter or thing that will be prejudicial or injurious to the freedom and independence thereof, as declared by Congress, and also, that I will discover and make known to some one justice of the peace of said State all treasons or traitorous conspiracies which I now know or hereafter shall know to be formed against this or any of the United States of America."

Click to expand...

According to this oath, it would seem the emphasis of one's loyalty would be to the state first then to any of the other states which comprised the United States. I believe this was the root cause of the war.

Click to expand...

Joe very true only a "lawful" order has to obeyed by a soldier. (Now we must define lawful)

The "United States" appear to more a group of states more closely united as a "union" and a "United States" whereas a confederacy of states is much more loosely organized with gov't of the entire confederacy only taking care of certain legal matters such as "declaring war" ;-) or other things.


Here is a cut and paste of an unusual historical document, and the only instance of which we have heard of an oath of allegiance signed by one of high officer's rank in the Confederate army. The printed form is headed at top "Form of Oath." In it, Lee swears that:

"I Edwin G. Lee aged 26 years 7 months, born in Virginia, appointed from Jefferson Co., Virginia, do solemnly swear or affirm that while I continue in the service of the I will bear true faith, and yield obedience to the CONFEDERATE STATES OF AMERICA, and that I will serve them honestly and faithfully against their enemies, and that I will observe and obey the orders of the President of the Confederate States, and the orders of the Officers appointed over me, according to the Rules and Articles of War."



The meaning of oaths and the forgotten man. A long but excellent read about another West Point General from Virginia.

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/ne ... ath-means/

I'm curious; a lot of people here seem to know enough about history to feel confident enough to recall and interpret cause and impact of the events. Does everyone here have a degree in history, or is history just a personal interest that you have persued on your own?

herofan":252r9pbu said:

I'm curious; a lot of people here seem to know enough about history to feel confident enough to recall and interpret cause and impact of the events. Does everyone here have a degree in history, or is history just a personal interest that you have persued on your own?

Click to expand...

My degrees are in biological sciences. Personally, I DO NOT have a keen interest in general history. However, I am a student of Africa. I have spent a lot of spare time reading about Africa including about the slave trade. It is a complex subject not limited to simply running down blacks, and shackleing them. The slave routes and how the commerce was conducted takes some effort to learn.

I think this is in the same category as the gas station biscuit

dun":2zfq8hj5 said:

I think this is in the same category as the gas station biscuit

Click to expand...

That gas station clip fits about every topic on here some days.

Bright Raven":2vmfnan6 said:

dun":2vmfnan6 said:

I think this is in the same category as the gas station biscuit

Click to expand...

That gas station clip fits about every topic on here some days.

Click to expand...

Kneeling in the NFL would REALLY be one of those!

TexasBred":3exlvh8u said:

Joe very true only a "lawful" order has to obeyed by a soldier. (Now we must define lawful)




The meaning of oaths and the forgotten man. A long but excellent read about another West Point General from Virginia.

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/ne ... ath-means/

Click to expand...

I skimmed the article but got hung up when he quotes the oath he says he took as an officer. That is the oath of an enlisted man but it does skew things in the favor of his opinion.

The point I'm trying to make is what would you do if you were in his shoes? You are married to Washington's grandaughter so you you are familiar with the struggles for independence and now you are being asked to lead the northern army against your home and your family and friends. This had to be a tough decision for him to make. Here is a man who wasn't a big advocate of slavery but here he was being faced with one of those dammed if you do and dammed if you don't type decisions. It had to be hard on him because he was in the same situation as Oskar Schindler during the second war and I suspect had Germany won history would view Shindler as a traitor.

The point I'm trying to make is I think its rather unfair for anyone today to judge any of these subjects by today's standards. Sure slavery was wrong. No doubt about it but during that period in history it was common. Did Lee make the wrong decision? I don't know but I know if I were in his shoes I wouldn't take up arms against my family and neighbors. On the flip side, people always ask how the Germans could do the same. Knowing that people are capable of doing that is pretty scary in my view.

People need to move on instead of finding things they no nothing about to offend themselves with. This girl's offense at seeing bowls of cotton in a vase at a store is ridiculous. Like someone asked, "are we going to tear out the railroad tracks because it offends the Chinese?" Its all so stupid. People need to get a life or maybe a job that will keep their attention on something other than BS like this.

Jogeephus":2u5vrmxr said:

Bright Raven":2u5vrmxr said:

Your points are fair. At the end of the day, truth is elusive. What drives social issues is not what is "true" or "right" but more so what is believed. There is a large social conscience that holds the Confederate flags represent racism and white supremacy. Sometimes it is easier to stop pounding your head against the wall and accept reality even if it does not ring true with your values!

Click to expand...

True enough. Afterall, few care to acknowledge that the american indians were the first slave owners in america nor do they care to accept the fact that a black man was the first legally sanctioned slave owner in america. These facts are irrelevant and their dissatisfaction must be directed toward inanimate stone objects or even plants like cotton which offends their sensitivities.

Click to expand...

I don't understand why it makes us feel justified to say that someone else did it first or even a black person could I be a slave owner. Slavery still makes me sick at my stomach...the fact that we allowed it here in our country even more sick....yet telling me that others did it first is suppose to make me feel ok with it. To quote some of my good rebel friends "you can't rewrite history" now "remove it". We just have to live with it and try to not repeat our mistakes.

Jogeephus":2psc93km said:

TexasBred":2psc93km said:

Joe very true only a "lawful" order has to obeyed by a soldier. (Now we must define lawful)




The meaning of oaths and the forgotten man. A long but excellent read about another West Point General from Virginia.

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/ne ... ath-means/

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I skimmed the article but got hung up when he quotes the oath he says he took as an officer. That is the oath of an enlisted man but it does skew things in the favor of his opinion.In 1836, he went to West Point, to become an Army officer. He graduated, twelfth in his class in 1840. The oath he swore went like this: "I, _____, appointed a _____ in the Army of the United States, do solemnly swear, or affirm, that I will bear true allegiance to the United States of America, and that I will serve them honestly and faithfully against all their enemies or opposers whatsoever, and observe and obey the orders of the President of the United States, and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to the rules and articles for the government of the Armies of the United States."

Is the above oath (In Red) the one you say is the oath of an enlisted man?? The man writing the article I referenced in the link was an officer and says this is basically the same oath he took in the 20th century

First, I don't take the "cotton is racist" as serious. That issue has no substance what so ever.

Second, I take all these posts as non-serious commentary. Just a way to spend some time in thought.

I have the same thought TexasBred expressed. Many here defend their position on the basis "we were not the first ones to do it" or even "well, blacks were slave masters". That is like getting pulled over for speeding and trying to tell the cop that the guy in front of you was going faster. I am sure every cop has heard that.

TexasBred":z5kc6rtv said:

I don't understand why it makes us feel justified to say that someone else did it first or even a black person could I be a slave owner. Slavery still makes me sick at my stomach...the fact that we allowed it here in our country even more sick....yet telling me that others did it first is suppose to make me feel ok with it. To quote some of my good rebel friends "you can't rewrite history" now "remove it". We just have to live with it and try to not repeat our mistakes.

Click to expand...

I don't see it as any justification by today's standards but it doesn't make me sick because neither you or I had anything to do with it. This was another era. This is part of history. Heck, France kept slave in Haiti up to the '60's so why does the USA catch all the blame?

What offends me is there are those who can't seem to move on who want to lay the blame of slavery on me because I am white. That is utter nonsense because the indians owned slaves the blacks owned slaves and YES white people owned slaves. However, based on the writings and letters of a relative on my mother's side - WE DID NOT own slaves. In her writings she looked upon those who lived on the coast and ran plantations as evil people. In one letter she was beside herself because one of the children went there for something and she was all upset saying it was nothing but a den of iniquity. But we did fight for the south. I don't know if we fought voluntarily or were dragged kicking and screaming to the front lines but we did fight and I can assure you it wasn't for the right to own slaves.

Jogeephus":176djlny said:

But we did fight for the south. I don't know if we fought voluntarily or were dragged kicking and screaming to the front lines but we did fight and I can assure you it wasn't for the right to own slaves.

Click to expand...

If we only knew! Old soldiers usually tell you they had no idea what they were fighting for. Mostly, to stay alive and just follow orders.

Wouldn't it be fascinating to interview a 1000 soldiers who fought for the Confederacy. Probably hear 1000 different reasons they were fighting. And I am sure a few would say because they didn't want to pick their own cotton. :lol: