Age of herd bull

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TennesseeTuxedo":3kc4aows said:
True Grit Farms":3kc4aows said:
I was under the impression that folks kept old bulls for eye candy, and still am. I haven't sold a 8 year old calf yet, to me what the animal looks like at 18 months is where the money's at.
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And I'd bet my bottom dollar that this bull's calves are market toppers at all stages of development.
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How can you tell that from a 8 year old bull? I guess CB told you that. TT, any bull with any decent traits looks good with age, all it takes is good management. I'm more impressed that a bull can stay structurally sound that long.
 
In our commercial herd we keep a bull until we have a better one to replace him with. Generally, if we like a bull enough to sell him private treaty and feel like we have enough daughters to let him go, we will move them when they are around 4-5. Any older than that and I feel like there's not a whole lot of years left for the next owner. If a bull gets to 6 here, we really, really like him. Might have our first 6 year old next fall if nothing happens to him.
 
True Grit Farms":d4lri0sb said:
TennesseeTuxedo":d4lri0sb said:
True Grit Farms":d4lri0sb said:
I was under the impression that folks kept old bulls for eye candy, and still am. I haven't sold a 8 year old calf yet, to me what the animal looks like at 18 months is where the money's at.
Click to expand...

And I'd bet my bottom dollar that this bull's calves are market toppers at all stages of development.
Click to expand...

How can you tell that from a 8 year old bull? I guess CB told you that. TT, any bull with any decent traits looks good with age, all it takes is good management. I'm more impressed that a bull can stay structurally sound that long.
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Uh, well Columbo, I've been observing Bootjack's stock on here since day one and they don't raise junk. Reputation matters and this is a damm fine bull.
 
True Grit Farms":2bobxzzy said:
I was under the impression that folks kept old bulls for eye candy, and still am. I haven't sold a 8 year old calf yet, to me what the animal looks like at 18 months is where the money's at.
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I think this bull is eye candy, but far from yard art! He is still seeing live service every year on at least 2 herds, and is still freezing well too. We have a tons of his daughters in production (in one of our commercial Lim-Flex herds) and I sell/lease several of his sons out every year. We usually feed out a couple dozen of his steer calves a year also. I can assure you, his calves do top the market and are stamped with the look of their sire. He was a $500 embryo back in the day, and he still costs me far less in maintenance than he makes me every year (and trust me, if have the expenses on my bulls figured down to the penny at this point!).

TG, you're correct that management has a lot to do with it. The guy that conducts the BSE's on my bulls always makes the comment that he rarely sees bulls as old as some of mine that are still in such good working shape. Don't get me wrong, I expect my bulls to earn there keep, but I also make sure they have the management and care to maximize what genetics gave them.

TT, Thanks for the compliment!
 
elkwc":2610wzta said:
TCRanch":2610wzta said:
Very few breeders will buy a 9 - 10 year old cow. And at least in KS non-virgin bulls or bulls greater than 18 months of age
must be tested for trichomoniasis and certified negative within 60 days prior to change of possession or ownership or
sold for slaughter. Oldest bull we ever kept was 8.
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. I would prefer to buy a 3-5 y/o bull that you can see his progeny but most want 2 y/o price and then will haul them to a sale and take dlaughter price.
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Jay, I know you have a good idea what a good bull costs from the research you do so this response is not directed at you. The one thing when you sell bulls both yearling and sometimes your mature herd sire when you are done with him is you get a wide variety of inquiries because some guys think they can buy a good bull at slaughter price when most guys who know the cattle business well know what a good bull is worth. A perfect example, our last herd bull we sold as a coming 5 year old and had several daughters in herd and sold several sons we sold as bulls that he sired along with having every birth weight, weaning weight, and any yearling and carcass data we had on animals we retained ownership on long enough to get that data we had. Some guys wanting to buy a proven bull at sale barn price inquired and he eventually sold to a breeder who valued the bull to know what he was getting was worth more than buying some unknown commodity at the sale barn. We flat out told a guy that called us that we'd rather send him to the sale barn where he could take his chances bidding on him there than sell him for the price he was offering. If you want to breed good cattle you don't buy your bulls from the sale barn you buy them from a reputable breeder that you are confident in the genetics you are buying and know the type of program they have. As a seedstock breeder we'd rather send a bull to the sale barn then sell him off the farm at sale barn price as that would imply that we should have just took the knife to the bull and fed him out as a steer. The one thing that will drive you nuts too is when a nearby breeder sells a bull for much less than he is worth just to get rid of him because then it affects all the nearby breeders when word gets out someone is selling bulls at a discount.

The bull market in general is a place where just when you think you have a price nailed down as a seller something happens that will change your perspective and make you re-think your prices. We follow bull sales and listen to feedback as much as we can. Guys who know what they are doing have probably already visited other herds before they have looked at your bulls so they know what your competition has and what they are asking. We usually do not discuss price upfront but as soon as a number is discussed you will know on first reaction if you in the ballpark on price or not.
 
elkwc":206k7rc3 said:
TCRanch":206k7rc3 said:
Very few breeders will buy a 9 - 10 year old cow. And at least in KS non-virgin bulls or bulls greater than 18 months of age
must be tested for trichomoniasis and certified negative within 60 days prior to change of possession or ownership or
sold for slaughter. Oldest bull we ever kept was 8.
Click to expand...
. I would prefer to buy a 3-5 y/o bull that you can see his progeny but most want 2 y/o price and then will haul them to a sale and take dlaughter price.
Click to expand...
I get that. We sold a 2.5 year old bull with attitude problems; buyers were fully aware but liked his EPD's and his calves.
And obviously I meant to say bull but did not preview. :dunce:
 
7 is the max for us and he has to be really liked to stay that longer. We prefer to replace at 5-6 yrs old. It seems like at 5-6 they aren't as active in the breeding as say a 2-3 year old. Kinda like humans.
 
SPH":1f4l77zd said:
elkwc":1f4l77zd said:
TCRanch":1f4l77zd said:
Very few breeders will buy a 9 - 10 year old cow. And at least in KS non-virgin bulls or bulls greater than 18 months of age
must be tested for trichomoniasis and certified negative within 60 days prior to change of possession or ownership or
sold for slaughter. Oldest bull we ever kept was 8.
Click to expand...
. I would prefer to buy a 3-5 y/o bull that you can see his progeny but most want 2 y/o price and then will haul them to a sale and take dlaughter price.
Click to expand...

Jay, I know you have a good idea what a good bull costs from the research you do so this response is not directed at you. The one thing when you sell bulls both yearling and sometimes your mature herd sire when you are done with him is you get a wide variety of inquiries because some guys think they can buy a good bull at slaughter price when most guys who know the cattle business well know what a good bull is worth. A perfect example, our last herd bull we sold as a coming 5 year old and had several daughters in herd and sold several sons we sold as bulls that he sired along with having every birth weight, weaning weight, and any yearling and carcass data we had on animals we retained ownership on long enough to get that data we had. Some guys wanting to buy a proven bull at sale barn price inquired and he eventually sold to a breeder who valued the bull to know what he was getting was worth more than buying some unknown commodity at the sale barn. We flat out told a guy that called us that we'd rather send him to the sale barn where he could take his chances bidding on him there than sell him for the price he was offering. If you want to breed good cattle you don't buy your bulls from the sale barn you buy them from a reputable breeder that you are confident in the genetics you are buying and know the type of program they have. As a seedstock breeder we'd rather send a bull to the sale barn then sell him off the farm at sale barn price as that would imply that we should have just took the knife to the bull and fed him out as a steer. The one thing that will drive you nuts too is when a nearby breeder sells a bull for much less than he is worth just to get rid of him because then it affects all the nearby breeders when word gets out someone is selling bulls at a discount.

The bull market in general is a place where just when you think you have a price nailed down as a seller something happens that will change your perspective and make you re-think your prices. We follow bull sales and listen to feedback as much as we can. Guys who know what they are doing have probably already visited other herds before they have looked at your bulls so they know what your competition has and what they are asking. We usually do not discuss price upfront but as soon as a number is discussed you will know on first reaction if you in the ballpark on price or not.
Click to expand...

I have tried to purchase about 3-5 older bulls 3-6 y/o. The cheapest was priced at $5,500 and up to $6,500. I might see a PB breeder paying that for a proven sire but not me as a commercial breeder. I have offered up to $4,500 and they acted offended. One did sell to a PB breeder and not sure for what amount but the others as far as I know went to the sale barn and likely ended up as hamburger. I know in some cases they have gave decent amounts for these bulls. But I feel I pushing the envelope a little when I offer 3,500-4,000 for a 5-6 y/o bull. A 3 y/o is a little different but after their 3 year old year old year I feel a thousand to a $1,500 dollar premium is enough for an older bull that I will get limited calf crops from. The reason I offered more for the one older bull is he had sired a nice group of heifers and we have been trying to replace a bunch of older cows so have been saving heifers and I felt he would help in that endeavor. There is a benefit to buying a proven bull but also there are going to only be a few calf crops left in them.
 
My old bull is nine. I have to admit that there is a connection with him that there won't be any later bulls, my Grandpa and Dad's last bull they bought, but he's throwing good calves that come easy and grow good. He is a very easy keeper, great disposition, I can do anything with him. Just walk around shushing or talking to him and he amble wherever you want him to go. He slicks off really fast, is short haired, and doesn't stand around in the water all the time. All things I want my cows to be, so I'm keeping every heifer of his that is out of an older cow. Him and the old cows I'm keeping heifers out of have been on this place, or on Dads old place a couple miles over, or the bulls birthplace two and a half miles over since birth. Trying to get a group put together that can handle/keep handling our environment here. He's got heifers coming back to him possibly this fall. I've got a young bull, but the jury is out until this fall on him.
I don't think that because you buy a young bull that you are necessarily upgrading your genetics, even from a seedstock producer.
 
I just brought home a 4 1/2 year old bull yesterday. What do I like about an older bull? You get to know his history, see his offspring. Also, if they're still sound and moving around good at an older age, one would hope that will translate to his daughters/future replacement cows. You should be able to see daughters in production with older bulls. You never know until it's all over switching bulls every year or two. What don't I like? By this time, they can get pretty good sized for smaller cows, and you never know how many years you got left with them, but you're just one broke pecker away from that with any bull, believe me I know that from experience.
 
Hogtiming":2ecuow93 said:
7 is the max for us and he has to be really liked to stay that longer. We prefer to replace at 5-6 yrs old. It seems like at 5-6 they aren't as active in the breeding as say a 2-3 year old. Kinda like humans.
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5 seems to be the magic # here. With a little different reason to. If a bull makes it to 5 I think a lot of him and wouldn't mind keeping him longer. But it Seems like at 5 they either break themselves or take to jumping fence and tearing down gates.
And at 5 there about as big as they'll be and bring a good slaughter price
 
Usually between 5 and 7 is when ours go. As long as I like him, like the calves, and he isn't hurting the females, causing problems, or having health problems of some type he remains. Once promoted to full time herd bull he has to break my contract with him for demotion. I usually have a younger bull around that I bought to resell or one I raised from the previous herd bull, or get an AI technician to breed daughters and grand daughters.
My Vegas bull is the herd bull or "the man with the ladies". The Younger Driver bull I purchased later I like his phenotype better and he's urging us for the job. But Vegas isn't giving up his post and his first calves are exactly what I wanted. He'll have to break the contract before demotion. MIGHT steal a few of his ladies though to see what the Driver bull can Sire. If I don't sell the Driver bull before.
Don't remember the exact age but we kept a Polled Hereford Bull up in his teens the longest. Still Remember "Old Mark". My grandfather had bought him up at the UK Research Station here in Princeton, KY back when they had Herefords.
 
elkwc":dc0r5uyf said:
I have tried to purchase about 3-5 older bulls 3-6 y/o. The cheapest was priced at $5,500 and up to $6,500. I might see a PB breeder paying that for a proven sire but not me as a commercial breeder. I have offered up to $4,500 and they acted offended. One did sell to a PB breeder and not sure for what amount but the others as far as I know went to the sale barn and likely ended up as hamburger. I know in some cases they have gave decent amounts for these bulls. But I feel I pushing the envelope a little when I offer 3,500-4,000 for a 5-6 y/o bull. A 3 y/o is a little different but after their 3 year old year old year I feel a thousand to a $1,500 dollar premium is enough for an older bull that I will get limited calf crops from. The reason I offered more for the one older bull is he had sired a nice group of heifers and we have been trying to replace a bunch of older cows so have been saving heifers and I felt he would help in that endeavor. There is a benefit to buying a proven bull but also there are going to only be a few calf crops left in them.
Click to expand...

Your price range is spot on and realistic I think. The last mature herd bull we sold few years back we were asking $4000 for which at the time was probably $1000 more than he would have brought by the pound at the sale barn at the time. We originally bought him as a yearling on the Rausch sale too so also had some proven genetic value behind him we felt. We had a couple guys offer around $3000 or a little less which are the ones we flat out told we'd probably get that for him sending him to the sale barn than sell him to you off the farm at that bargain. That 5500-6500 for a 3-6 is too pricey I agree, would rather spend that kind of money on a good 2 year old that you'd get more years out of. I guess the saying goes that something is only worth what 1 man will pay for it and if some guy will actually pay that much for an older bull then good for them I guess. It's the guys out there with insulting offers who actually think they will be able to get something for far less than it is really worth that are annoying but it's always going to be part of the business. Everyone has a different kind of budget and price range for what they can afford.
 
Just sold a 8 year old Angus bull I purchased from Deer Valley.That is as long as I ever kept a bull,most get bad feet or injured,he was still sound and in good shape,but from a business stand point I didn't want to risk getting another season out of him and losing him.As True Grit said I also like getting the new genetics.
 
kd4au":3k1my7xy said:
Just sold a 8 year old Angus bull I purchased from Deer Valley.That is as long as I ever kept a bull,most get bad feet or injured,he was still sound and in good shape,but from a business stand point I didn't want to risk getting another season out of him and losing him.As True Grit said I also like getting the new genetics.
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I like the folks at Deer Valley, first class operation.
 
Stumbled onto this thread. Here's my current herd sire. He's 5 this year. Still gets along good and bred all the cows first go around. He's a SAV Resource son. I'm hoping to keep him around at least another year.
 
I have bought two mature bulls. One big boy stifled after a couple weeks. The smaller one is breeding cows for the third year here, which will be his last. He was born in 2002.

I have read about Pharo bull owners who bragged up bulls that lasted more than 10 years. I assume smaller bulls have fewer soundness problems.
 
Five is pretty good around here. Most bulls do something to take themselves out of the herd by four. Just sold a Char bull that was six. Planned on using him this year he had a 100% conception rate last year. But the PB Char breeder we buy bulls from retired and had a complete dispersal. We bought four. A two year old and three yearlings. We sold the old bull and he brought enough to pay for 2 of the new bulls.
I would be scared that really old bulls would get lazy and not heat detect as aggressively as a 2-3 yr old.
 
Thinking back, most every bull limped out of here at 6 to 8 years of age. Had one die on me and another walked out just fine but had recovered from a slight injury. Still chasing the girls but couldn't get the job done. That one cost me a good portion of a calf crop.
 

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