Let's Bicker

Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of your favorite breed.

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True Grit Farms
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby True Grit Farms » Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:11 am

Every breed association says the samething. DNA testing is advancing the breeds more than anything else. I'm not a fan of mixed bred cattle that can be bred up to pure breeds but the ASA is doing a good job with DNA. If the ASA keeps following the AAA lead the breed will keep making steady improvements.
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Here's an Angus steer with to much white that has good numbers and pedigree that still could of been registered. My way of thinking is, the breeder has a responsibility to the breed to do the right thing.
If we'd of know this we'd of picked our own cotton.

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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby TennesseeTuxedo » Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:25 am

Bright Raven wrote:
TennesseeTuxedo wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
Good explanation. There are often comments on this forum that mispresent the breeding history of the American Simmental breed. American Simmental Breeders were not just "chasing the black color", they had other objectives in the plan to improve the American Simmental. TT made the comment that he likes the old world Simmentals, I doubt many American Simmental Breeders would want to go backwards. Thanks for your explanation.


So what moved the breed "foreword"?


SELECTIVE breeding within the breeds gene pool. Breeders started with old world Simmentals and by selecting for desirable traits they progressed toward the modern American Simmental. Breeding is a work in progress striving to achieve the ideal characteristics.

Sometimes the traits that the breeders covet changes so it is a moving target and the work is never finished. The old world Simmentals were a multipurpose bovine. The American Simmental is a beef breed. American Breeders sought to moderate size, improve calving ease and select for black pelage. The result is the American Simmental.


Where did the black pelage come from?
The more I read here the less I know.

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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby Bright Raven » Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:25 am

True Grit Farms wrote:Every breed association says the samething. DNA testing is advancing the breeds more than anything else. I'm not a fan of mixed bred cattle that can be bred up to pure breeds but the ASA is doing a good job with DNA. If the ASA keeps following the AAA lead the breed will keep making steady improvements.
Image
Here's an Angus steer with to much white that has good numbers and pedigree that still could of been registered. My way of thinking is, the breeder has a responsibility to the breed to do the right thing.


Here we go again. :D

The devil is in who defines "The Right Thing".

It depends on the stated objectives. If an organization of breeders forms to produce a breed of cattle that start with Angus and select for a white udder, then this animal would be ideal if her other traits are good.

However, I know your meaning. Yes. Breeders should adhere to an ethical standard that has defined breeding for centuries.

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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby Bright Raven » Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:29 am

TennesseeTuxedo wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
TennesseeTuxedo wrote:
So what moved the breed "foreword"?


SELECTIVE breeding within the breeds gene pool. Breeders started with old world Simmentals and by selecting for desirable traits they progressed toward the modern American Simmental. Breeding is a work in progress striving to achieve the ideal characteristics.

Sometimes the traits that the breeders covet changes so it is a moving target and the work is never finished. The old world Simmentals were a multipurpose bovine. The American Simmental is a beef breed. American Breeders sought to moderate size, improve calving ease and select for black pelage. The result is the American Simmental.


Where did the black pelage come from?


As Lucky pointed out, black is inherent in Bos taurus taurus. The original ancestors of today's domestic cattle harbored genes for black pelage. The old world Simmentals no doubt had black in their gene pool.

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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby TennesseeTuxedo » Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:32 am

Bright Raven wrote:
TennesseeTuxedo wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
SELECTIVE breeding within the breeds gene pool. Breeders started with old world Simmentals and by selecting for desirable traits they progressed toward the modern American Simmental. Breeding is a work in progress striving to achieve the ideal characteristics.

Sometimes the traits that the breeders covet changes so it is a moving target and the work is never finished. The old world Simmentals were a multipurpose bovine. The American Simmental is a beef breed. American Breeders sought to moderate size, improve calving ease and select for black pelage. The result is the American Simmental.


Where did the black pelage come from?


As Lucky pointed out, black is inherent in Bos taurus taurus. The original ancestors of today's domestic cattle harbored genes for black pelage. The old world Simmentals no doubt had black in their gene pool.


Just took man to find it huh?
The more I read here the less I know.

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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby Bright Raven » Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:34 am

TennesseeTuxedo wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
TennesseeTuxedo wrote:
Where did the black pelage come from?


As Lucky pointed out, black is inherent in Bos taurus taurus. The original ancestors of today's domestic cattle harbored genes for black pelage. The old world Simmentals no doubt had black in their gene pool.


Just took man to find it huh?


Well, it wasn't orangutans.

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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby Craig Miller » Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:07 am

True Grit Farms wrote:Every breed association says the samething. DNA testing is advancing the breeds more than anything else. I'm not a fan of mixed bred cattle that can be bred up to pure breeds but the ASA is doing a good job with DNA. If the ASA keeps following the AAA lead the breed will keep making steady improvements.
Image
Here's an Angus steer with to much white that has good numbers and pedigree that still could of been registered. My way of thinking is, the breeder has a responsibility to the breed to do the right thing.


That always works out well. The problem is the right thing to do is over rode by the right amount of money.

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Jeanne - Simme Valley
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:31 am

Following is parts & pieces of the History I print in the NY Simm Assn directory. Notice all the different "strains" of Simmental. Gelbvieh was also considered a strain, but the founding fathers of ASA decided not to accept them as part of the American Simmental because they had temperament problems.

"History of the Simmental Breed
The Simmental is among the oldest and most widely distributed of all breeds of cattle in the world. Although the first official herdbook was established in the Swiss Canton of Berne in 1806, there is evidence of large, productive "red and white" cattle being found much earlier in ecclesiastical and secular property records of Western Switzerland.
The breed made its most recent appearance in North America when a Canadian, Travers Smith, imported the famed bull "Parisien" from France in 1967. Semen was introduced into the United States that same year, with the first half-blood Simmental calf born at Geyser, MT, in February, 1968.

The breed is known by a variety of names, including "Fleckvieh" in Germany; "Pie Rouge", "Montbeliarde", and "Abondance" in France; and "Pezzata Rosa" in Italy. The Simmental name is derived from their original location, the Simme Valley of Switzerland. In German, Thal or Tal means valley, thus the name literally means "Simme Valley".
Simmental have a number of important attributes. They are widely distributed throughout the world, implying adaptability to varied environments and management practices. They have continued to thrive over hundreds of years, implying utility, functional efficiency and productivity; and they are second in numbers, only to Brahman, among all breeds worldwide.
The American Simmental Association (ASA) was founded by a contingent of breeders who came from other breed backgrounds and shared a common goal of establishing a breed base on sound, performance principles. Thus, in its 30+ years of existence, ASA has often been in the forefront of beef industry innovation and progress. In 1971, ASA published the first beef breed sire summary, and since that time has: 1) initiated a cow recognition program; 2) developed Simbrah, a heat tolerant, insect-resistant breed combining the genetics of Simmental and Brahman; 3) developed the first multi-breed EPDs; 4) been a leader in incorporating performance data into the show ring; and, 5) more recently, established the industry standard for proving carcass merit. Most other breeds have followed the leadership of ASA. "


Here's more taken from "Description of a Simmental"
"A Blend Of The Best - The American Simmental
America has been known as the melting pot of nationalities. The same concept is true for the Simmental breed. European countries have specialized in the development of particular strains and traits of Simmental. A great deal of pride is associated with the product that has been developed by each country, and, in some cases, by specific herdbooks within countries. Only in America has there been an opportunity for an expansive within-breed blending or melting-pot effect to take place. The result has been greater performance and productivity because only the best cattle coming from the various countries are utilized in the composition of the superior American Simmental. The resulting product is capable of expressing the superior traits from all European strains, providing for even greater flexibility and opportunities for innovative and creative cattle breeders.
American Simmental Have Evolved From a Wide Genetic Base
Only a small proportion of any generation is truly genetically superior. The larger the population base, the greater the potential for selection of superior individuals. Through innovative programs, such as performance testing, carcass evaluation, total herd enrollment and a nationwide sire summary evaluation, the opportunity to select for improvement of economically important traits is enhanced ever more."
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby Bright Raven » Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:36 am

Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:Following is parts & pieces of the History I print in the NY Simm Assn directory. Notice all the different "strains" of Simmental. Gelbvieh was also considered a strain, but the founding fathers of ASA decided not to accept them as part of the American Simmental because they had temperament problems.

"History of the Simmental Breed
The Simmental is among the oldest and most widely distributed of all breeds of cattle in the world. Although the first official herdbook was established in the Swiss Canton of Berne in 1806, there is evidence of large, productive "red and white" cattle being found much earlier in ecclesiastical and secular property records of Western Switzerland.
The breed made its most recent appearance in North America when a Canadian, Travers Smith, imported the famed bull "Parisien" from France in 1967. Semen was introduced into the United States that same year, with the first half-blood Simmental calf born at Geyser, MT, in February, 1968.

The breed is known by a variety of names, including "Fleckvieh" in Germany; "Pie Rouge", "Montbeliarde", and "Abondance" in France; and "Pezzata Rosa" in Italy. The Simmental name is derived from their original location, the Simme Valley of Switzerland. In German, Thal or Tal means valley, thus the name literally means "Simme Valley".
Simmental have a number of important attributes. They are widely distributed throughout the world, implying adaptability to varied environments and management practices. They have continued to thrive over hundreds of years, implying utility, functional efficiency and productivity; and they are second in numbers, only to Brahman, among all breeds worldwide.
The American Simmental Association (ASA) was founded by a contingent of breeders who came from other breed backgrounds and shared a common goal of establishing a breed base on sound, performance principles. Thus, in its 30+ years of existence, ASA has often been in the forefront of beef industry innovation and progress. In 1971, ASA published the first beef breed sire summary, and since that time has: 1) initiated a cow recognition program; 2) developed Simbrah, a heat tolerant, insect-resistant breed combining the genetics of Simmental and Brahman; 3) developed the first multi-breed EPDs; 4) been a leader in incorporating performance data into the show ring; and, 5) more recently, established the industry standard for proving carcass merit. Most other breeds have followed the leadership of ASA. "


Here's more taken from "Description of a Simmental"
"A Blend Of The Best - The American Simmental
America has been known as the melting pot of nationalities. The same concept is true for the Simmental breed. European countries have specialized in the development of particular strains and traits of Simmental. A great deal of pride is associated with the product that has been developed by each country, and, in some cases, by specific herdbooks within countries. Only in America has there been an opportunity for an expansive within-breed blending or melting-pot effect to take place. The result has been greater performance and productivity because only the best cattle coming from the various countries are utilized in the composition of the superior American Simmental. The resulting product is capable of expressing the superior traits from all European strains, providing for even greater flexibility and opportunities for innovative and creative cattle breeders.
American Simmental Have Evolved From a Wide Genetic Base
Only a small proportion of any generation is truly genetically superior. The larger the population base, the greater the potential for selection of superior individuals. Through innovative programs, such as performance testing, carcass evaluation, total herd enrollment and a nationwide sire summary evaluation, the opportunity to select for improvement of economically important traits is enhanced ever more."


Jeanne, thank you for sharing that. Maybe TT can read that and learn.

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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby TennesseeTuxedo » Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:58 am

Bright Raven wrote:
Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:Following is parts & pieces of the History I print in the NY Simm Assn directory. Notice all the different "strains" of Simmental. Gelbvieh was also considered a strain, but the founding fathers of ASA decided not to accept them as part of the American Simmental because they had temperament problems.

"History of the Simmental Breed
The Simmental is among the oldest and most widely distributed of all breeds of cattle in the world. Although the first official herdbook was established in the Swiss Canton of Berne in 1806, there is evidence of large, productive "red and white" cattle being found much earlier in ecclesiastical and secular property records of Western Switzerland.
The breed made its most recent appearance in North America when a Canadian, Travers Smith, imported the famed bull "Parisien" from France in 1967. Semen was introduced into the United States that same year, with the first half-blood Simmental calf born at Geyser, MT, in February, 1968.

The breed is known by a variety of names, including "Fleckvieh" in Germany; "Pie Rouge", "Montbeliarde", and "Abondance" in France; and "Pezzata Rosa" in Italy. The Simmental name is derived from their original location, the Simme Valley of Switzerland. In German, Thal or Tal means valley, thus the name literally means "Simme Valley".
Simmental have a number of important attributes. They are widely distributed throughout the world, implying adaptability to varied environments and management practices. They have continued to thrive over hundreds of years, implying utility, functional efficiency and productivity; and they are second in numbers, only to Brahman, among all breeds worldwide.
The American Simmental Association (ASA) was founded by a contingent of breeders who came from other breed backgrounds and shared a common goal of establishing a breed base on sound, performance principles. Thus, in its 30+ years of existence, ASA has often been in the forefront of beef industry innovation and progress. In 1971, ASA published the first beef breed sire summary, and since that time has: 1) initiated a cow recognition program; 2) developed Simbrah, a heat tolerant, insect-resistant breed combining the genetics of Simmental and Brahman; 3) developed the first multi-breed EPDs; 4) been a leader in incorporating performance data into the show ring; and, 5) more recently, established the industry standard for proving carcass merit. Most other breeds have followed the leadership of ASA. "


Here's more taken from "Description of a Simmental"
"A Blend Of The Best - The American Simmental
America has been known as the melting pot of nationalities. The same concept is true for the Simmental breed. European countries have specialized in the development of particular strains and traits of Simmental. A great deal of pride is associated with the product that has been developed by each country, and, in some cases, by specific herdbooks within countries. Only in America has there been an opportunity for an expansive within-breed blending or melting-pot effect to take place. The result has been greater performance and productivity because only the best cattle coming from the various countries are utilized in the composition of the superior American Simmental. The resulting product is capable of expressing the superior traits from all European strains, providing for even greater flexibility and opportunities for innovative and creative cattle breeders.
American Simmental Have Evolved From a Wide Genetic Base
Only a small proportion of any generation is truly genetically superior. The larger the population base, the greater the potential for selection of superior individuals. Through innovative programs, such as performance testing, carcass evaluation, total herd enrollment and a nationwide sire summary evaluation, the opportunity to select for improvement of economically important traits is enhanced ever more."


Jeanne, thank you for sharing that. Maybe TT can read that and learn.


Yup, very informative. Reinforces my original opinion.

Carry on.
The more I read here the less I know.

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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby TennesseeTuxedo » Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:59 am

True Grit Farms wrote:Every breed association says the samething. DNA testing is advancing the breeds more than anything else. I'm not a fan of mixed bred cattle that can be bred up to pure breeds but the ASA is doing a good job with DNA. If the ASA keeps following the AAA lead the breed will keep making steady improvements.
Image
Here's an Angus steer with to much white that has good numbers and pedigree that still could of been registered. My way of thinking is, the breeder has a responsibility to the breed to do the right thing.


Are you sure that the steer has "too much white"?
The more I read here the less I know.

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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:27 pm

Typical Angus steer - no rear quarters. AAA breeders put most of their efforts into chasing marbling, and they have lost the good muscling they used to have. The cattle I see at the shows, the Hereford breed (using the Horned Hereford) has better muscling than the Angus cattle.
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby u4411clb » Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:20 pm

Next bull purchase will probably be a Fleckveigh bull. Guy in Huntsville has bred them ai for probably 30 years and has a good looking herd no spots and they have fixed birth weight and birth ease.

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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby ALACOWMAN » Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:32 pm

u4411clb wrote:Next bull purchase will probably be a Fleckveigh bull. Guy in Huntsville has bred them ai for probably 30 years and has a good looking herd no spots and they have fixed birth weight and birth ease.
is he a Doctor?? Seems there's a breeder that's been in Simms a long time... Nice outfit to
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Re: Let's Bicker

Postby u4411clb » Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:39 pm

Yes he was a doctor. Retired as a doctor if I am correct. Been driving by that herd for probably 20 years think I have done enough looking could be time to buy. Never seen a breeding age bull. He's been ai a very long time.


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