DNA verification/not

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insurman
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DNA verification/not

Postby insurman » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:29 pm

So my question is what is expected/assumed on parent verification.

Bought a bred heifer last year based on her sire and that was the only reason..

The heifer calved right when expected and had a heifer calf (2 for 1 in my book), well I took tail hair samples on both..the heifer I bought is not out of the sire or the dam(a doner dam) as it was advertised. The resulting heifer calf is out of the advertised sire but now not sure on who the momma is...I am beyond be nice and trying to calm down before calling the guy.

What is the expected result of this? Money back? Another calf? $X amount of credit? Nothing? I could really damage him by word of mouth.. Or take it as a learning experience and move on?

First time I have had to deal with this.

Thoughts?

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Re: DNA verification/not

Postby cbcr » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:42 pm

These things do happen on occasion, and many times they are honest mistakes. I would contact the seller and let him know what happened, could have been that more than one cow calved and calves switched.

If that is the case, then he should be able to figure out what animals would need to be DNA parentage verified to see who is who.

insurman
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Re: DNA verification/not

Postby insurman » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:55 pm

She was an "embryo transfer" calf..so not only is the sire wrong so is the dam..ie, an intentional mistake.

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Re: DNA verification/not

Postby WalnutCrest » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:08 pm

Not necessarily intentional. The person making the embryos may have miss labeled something. It's rare but it can occur.

If you want to discuss this, I'm happy to do so on the phone. Drop me a PM if interested.
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dun
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Re: DNA verification/not

Postby dun » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:30 am

We're going through the same circus right now with out bull. We thought he was born a week late (to AI) but apparently was 2 weeks early from the cleanup bull.
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Re: DNA verification/not

Postby True Grit Farms » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:18 am

Something screwed up somewhere and I'd want to know where. I see no way a breeder would intentionally do this myself. What breed of cattle are you having this problem with?
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Re: DNA verification/not

Postby bse » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:21 am

I would be calling whoever I got the heifer from. Could be several legit reasons for it, but if the recip is a commercial cow and no mix up on the embryo put in, then all you have is a commercial cow and calf.

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Re: DNA verification/not

Postby Fire Sweep Ranch » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:19 am

insurman wrote:She was an "embryo transfer" calf..so not only is the sire wrong so is the dam..ie, an intentional mistake.

Not sure what breed you are talking about, but in the Simmental breed ALL embryos calves have to be DNA'd, UNLESS you own the dam at time of flushing. So, if the person you bought the cow from owns the dam, she would not have had to be DNA'd to get papers.
There is a really nice bull out there, Head's Up, that was sold for a very pretty penny. He was advertised as being out of this famous dam, and sired by Upgrade. In the Simmental world, in order to sell semen, the bull must be parent verified. So they ran DNA on the bull, for the purposes of selling semen. He did not match back to his dam. They blood tested EVERY cow they thought might have calved at the same time (switching calves at birth was the original thought), and NOTHING matched. So, he was registered as a half blood instead of purebred.
IT HAPPENS, this was a very well known name that sold the bull originally. I think your first thing you need to do is contact the seller and see where it goes. If it happened to me, I would take the pair back and refund your money, or offer a replacement.
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insurman
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Re: DNA verification/not

Postby insurman » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:36 am

She is a Simbrah (well I thought she was) and the breeder owned the dam.

So frustrating.

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Re: DNA verification/not

Postby SPH » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:11 am

It's an unfortunate situation and I agree with Fire Sweep Ranch, go back to the seller and try to work out some sort of compensation. Either a refund or comparable replacement is what any reputable seedstock seller should provide as you didn't get what you thought you were buying. I would think that most guys who sell seedstock would feel bad and want to make good on a deal if something like this happened to them. I wouldn't try to threaten or damage their name through word of mouth, have an open and civil conversation about this situation and see if they will work with you to satisfy you. If they are unreasonable and won't compensate you for it then you have reason to share your opinions on your bad experience but I think that would be the last thing to do not the first if you want the seller to made good on the deal. The last thing a fair and reputable seedstock seller wants is bad word of mouth so unless they don't care about being ethical and fair they probably would want to work with you to make sure you don't have a reason to bad mouth them.

It makes you wonder how much has slipped through the cracks in the past when DNA testing was not required and so common as it is today. I do believe that most of these incidents where the DNA doesn't match up was unintentional or mistakes made somewhere in the process of identifying the parentage or handling of the samples. We all know that bulls and cows can sometimes find their ways into pastures they aren't supposed to be in or in a large operation 2 cows calving at the same time might claim the wrong calf. Odds are it is bound to happen once in awhile with all the various scenarios that are possible.

We went through something similar to this once on some semen we bought in the 90's from a VERY reputable breeder who has been in the business for multiple generations now. Went to register the calves we had and found out the bull had not been certified for AI yet. The breeder went through the AI certification process and found out the parentage did not match up. Sire was right but dam was not, well they only run about 400-500 cows and submitted samples on any possibilities but couldn't find a match so they assumed the dam may have been a cow they no longer had. Well now we had some really nice yearling heifers we could not register and another group of calves by this bull on the ground that would be nothing but commercial females in our registered purebred herd which set us back 2 years of calves on some of our top cows. We were disappointed that they weren't able to match up the parentage as they were some very nice calves we had by that bull. The breeder worked with us and purchased all the females sired by their bull from us at a fair price and took them back to use in their commercial herd. We've even done some business with them since then and have no hard feelings about it since it was an unintentional mistake which they took responsibility for and provided compensation for it. That's why they have been in the business as long as they have been and their cattle sells well because the do things the right way.

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Re: DNA verification/not

Postby Son of Butch » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:19 pm

What are your damages?
Both have value. You just over paid for what you received.
Arrive at the value of each and settle for the difference.
You are entitled to be made whole, not a winning lottery ticket.

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Re: DNA verification/not

Postby Ky hills » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:39 pm

Mistakes can and do happen, though I would think when it came to ET calves the parentage would be verified at registration, because of the effort and expense to do it, it would cost very little more. I do recall a current popular bull, that there was a mix up on what dam he was from. I have had DNA work done on AI sired calves and results on a bull calf came back not matching the AI sire. I figure it probably happens fairly frequently and most of the time unintentional.

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Re: DNA verification/not

Postby gizmom » Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:04 pm

Everyone has covered it, first step contact the breeder. Chances are they will be every bit as upset about this as you are. I know I would be. We don't register an ET calf until the DNA comes back to prove it is a ET calf. We have never sold a pregnant recip so that is a different twist, but if she was sold with an ET pregnancy you can bet we would be standing behind it. Bottom line no matter how hard we all try things can go wrong, so give the breeder the chance to make it right. Sorry this happened to you, no matter what happened it sucks.

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Re: DNA verification/not

Postby insurman » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:19 pm

Son of Butch wrote:What are your damages?
Both have value. You just over paid for what you received.
Arrive at the value of each and settle for the difference.
You are entitled to be made whole, not a winning lottery ticket.


Point taken on all...never asked or suggested a winning lotto ticket.

Talked to the breeder and it went ok, he is checking into things and trying to figure out who is who. Says he will get back to me in a few days.

Gizmom, The heifer I bought was suppose to be an ET calf and she did not match to either the sire or the dam. The Simmi she was bred to did match to the calf she had 3 months ago. So I know the heifer calf is at least 50% Simmi

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Re: DNA verification/not

Postby gizmom » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:43 pm

That is why we always DNA test the ET calves, just to make sure. I hope you can get it worked out. I know when your planning a certain genetic and it doesn't end up working our no matter what the reason it is just plain discouraging. Again sorry your having the problem and hope they do what is right.

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