Thought Mexico was building the wall

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Ky hills
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Re: Thought Mexico was building the wall

Postby Ky hills » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:05 pm

callmefence wrote:
Jogeephus wrote:
callmefence wrote:Sounds like you lost 4 guys. Personally I would have worked night and day, my wife would have been there to. We probably would have got the job done faster and more efficiently.
Would have been sore, but we wouldn't have been importing immigrants .
Who's really the lazy one..


I knew an idiot would chime in shortly.


As usual tobacco farmer you ain't got the brains or the back to do anything but insult.
You gonna fall off that high horse and chip a tooth you don't watch out.
Now I'm going get back to work and I'll be speaking English to my men.
Good luck with the Guatemalan, you American cupcake


Jogeephus, what you said about the crew you tried to put together is very consistent with what we deal with here too. There was a recent article in a newspaper about how factories are having real trouble finding reliable workers, so one can only imagine how hard it would be to find reliable workers for agricultural work. Used to be folks would be waiting downtown to be picked up by farmers to work in hay or tobacco of a morning, that hasn't been the case for years. Now IF some one is willing to work, most likely it's under the condition of cash only. Then a lot of times one day is all they will work, or when it is convenient for them, which is almost never when they are really needed.
Callmefence, I am fortunate in that I do know of a couple folks who help with work that I can't do myself, otherwise I would likely have to look to migrant workers, it's just the reality, especially if we were still raising tobacco, or a large scale produce.

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Re: Thought Mexico was building the wall

Postby Jogeephus » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:14 pm

Ky hills wrote:Jogeephus, what you said about the crew you tried to put together is very consistent with what we deal with here too. There was a recent article in a newspaper about how factories are having real trouble finding reliable workers, so one can only imagine how hard it would be to find reliable workers for agricultural work. Used to be folks would be waiting downtown to be picked up by farmers to work in hay or tobacco of a morning, that hasn't been the case for years. Now IF some one is willing to work, most likely it's under the condition of cash only. Then a lot of times one day is all they will work, or when it is convenient for them, which is almost never when they are really needed.
Callmefence, I am fortunate in that I do know of a couple folks who help with work that I can't do myself, otherwise I would likely have to look to migrant workers, it's just the reality, especially if we were still raising tobacco, or a large scale produce.


I agree. Its tough and when you are dealing with perishable products you don't have the luxury to sit on your azz and wait to find help because you have a tight window you have to work in. The Guatemalans I hired had full time jobs in a chicken processing plant but this is a bad time of year so they were put on furlow till orders pick up. So this works out for both of us because processing normally picks up in the spring.

As many have said, we have a system that rewards people not to work. And why should they when the gov't provides them everything they need and even things they don't need like cell phones. Don't get me wrong, I'm for helping those who truly need help but when the government gives services to who don't truly need it then they are depriving those who truly do from services they could provide.

I tire of hearing people beating their chests claiming how hard they work but when the opportunity to work presents itself they scurry to the corners like mice and I've found those who beat their chests the loudest tend to be the sorriest.

As said, I'm well pleased with these guys and plan on treating them well. All seem to be religious, family oriented and all except one speaks fluent English and their stories are quite interesting. It must be hard for them to leave their families to come here to work but I guess Americans are too good to work in a meat processing plant. Leaving my family to provide for them would be hard I think but I guess if you care enough about your family you'll do just about anything unless of course you are sorry and opt to leave your responsibility to the government as many americans have.
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Re: Thought Mexico was building the wall

Postby callmefence » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:38 pm

The more I work the luckier I get...TexasBred


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Re: Thought Mexico was building the wall

Postby ohiosteve » Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:30 pm

Jo or Fenceman, I'm pretty sure I would enjoy working for either one of you. I've honestly considered selling my place up here once my daughter goes off to college in 2 years and heading south to work. I think both of Y'all should be recruiting working class Northerners that are just sick of the cold weather. I guarantee you will get some of the best workers around....
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Re: Thought Mexico was building the wall

Postby M-5 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:45 pm

ohiosteve wrote:Jo or Fenceman, I'm pretty sure I would enjoy working for either one of you. I've honestly considered selling my place up here once my daughter goes off to college in 2 years and heading south to work. I think both of Y'all should be recruiting working class Northerners that are just sick of the cold weather. I guarantee you will get some of the best workers around....

Be about the same trying to understand the yankee language , lol
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Re: Thought Mexico was building the wall

Postby ohiosteve » Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:57 pm

M-5 wrote:
ohiosteve wrote:Jo or Fenceman, I'm pretty sure I would enjoy working for either one of you. I've honestly considered selling my place up here once my daughter goes off to college in 2 years and heading south to work. I think both of Y'all should be recruiting working class Northerners that are just sick of the cold weather. I guarantee you will get some of the best workers around....

Be about the same trying to understand the yankee language , lol

Aye, yer just bein' a hoser.
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Re: Thought Mexico was building the wall

Postby callmefence » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:02 pm

ohiosteve wrote:Jo or Fenceman, I'm pretty sure I would enjoy working for either one of you. I've honestly considered selling my place up here once my daughter goes off to college in 2 years and heading south to work. I think both of Y'all should be recruiting working class Northerners that are just sick of the cold weather. I guarantee you will get some of the best workers around....


Sounds fine Steve.

I'm going to go ahead and beat my chest a bit. Sorry it's something I take great pride in
In a business with a very high turn over rate .It's not uncommon for us to have young men stay around several years. We are taxed the lowest unemployment rate possible, because we have not layed off a employee due to lack of work in approximately 15 years. We often work at little to no profit during slow periods to assure our men have work. There are plenty of good homegrown workers available that will be loyal to someone who treats them well.

Thanks :tiphat:
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Re: Thought Mexico was building the wall

Postby Commercialfarmer » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:09 pm

callmefence wrote:
Jogeephus wrote:This has been quite interesting thread especially with the work I've been doing lately where I had to put a crew together to help with some field work. And YES! I put together a 100% american crew and man did they say they were eager to work for the pay I'm paying. I felt good about it. Had high hopes. However as the start time approached excuses began fly so I delayed starting for two weeks to give everyone time to get over their holiday conflicts then we were to start on a Monday. However on Friday, one of my key American guys decided he didn't want the job and took another job. Another, got thrown in jail after being shot at a New Years Eve party. Then another got back on drugs and was thrown in jail and since he was already on probation for drugs he was going on another taxpayer funded vacation leaving his three kids behind for us to clothe and feed. Then another informs me I'll need to pay him cash because if he gets a check it'll mess up his disability check. My American house of cards crumbled.

Thankfully, a retired guy stepped up to the plate to work. Because of our screwed up convoluted tax system he had to talk to his accountant and have his retirement annuities stop paying him because any extra income would hurt him. (Penalized for work. Doesn't that sound all to familiar?) I don't understand this but it didn't seem like a big deal to him. He is now my foreman and is making a good lick.

As for the others, some of you will be happy that I didn't hire Mexicans. Yes, I feel good about this. Last time I hired Mexicans I got them through the US Migrant Worker's Agency here in town and they all turned out to be illegal. So, NO I'm not repeating that mess again. Nope, this time I hired Guatemalans. Legal ones with green cards at that. Its been so nice not hearing any whining and complaining. No one has layed out yet. Everyone shows up on time. I've been so pleased with these guys I've been giving them all bonuses each week and believe it or not production has increased to the point where these bonuses aren't actually costing me anything.

Before some idiot hammers me for not hiring 100% american cupcakes, I will say I believe we need a strong border and shouldn't let just anyone in the country. Immigrants and workers need to be thoroughly vetted but I don't think a wall or anything else will work until we demand that the government do their job and deport all illegals when they are caught rather than coddling them and finding them jobs. This is BS. We also need a sane tax policy in this country where you are not penalized for working and where employers are not fined for hiring people. Yes, I pay a fine for each person I hire. Its not but $29/head but that is BS. We also need to revamp the welfare system and all these other entitlement programs. Just like this "disabled" guy who wanted cash. Shyt, if he is disabled then I'm superman - and I'm not!

There is a lot wrong with our system. I don't have the answers but I do think we have enough laws on the books that if the gov't would just enforce these laws a lot of this would take care of itself. Sanctuary cities should be barred from receiving any and all federal monies.

All I know is I deal with perishable products and don't have the luxury to wait around till I find reliable "american workers" to get the job done. Its sad, but that's just the way it is.



Sounds like you lost 4 guys. Personally I would have worked night and day, my wife would have been there to. We probably would have got the job done faster and more efficiently.
Would have been sore, but we wouldn't have been importing immigrants .
Who's really the lazy one..



There's probably 95 things out of a hundred we would agree upon.

But I have a question on this subject. IF you can't find Americans to work and you are paying an honest days wages for an honest days work, why would you penalize yourself and not hire legal green card workers?

Who are you hurting to hire legitimate non-citizen willing workers? I don't see who you could be hurting. And here is why.

They are paying taxes. It isn't under the table if they are legal and you are reporting their wages. So taxes are coming out. As I understand it, there is very little if any benefits they will get back from the confiscated taxes. If they are green card holders, they will be going home. There is no retirement benefits. Their kids aren't taking up education funds in our schools. Americans will benefit as they are getting tax income without having the liabilities.

There is always a point reached that your production is hampered as you increase the number of hours you work. I work too many hours and reach it consistently. The more hours I work after that point, the less productive I am per hour.

At most, you can work the equivalent of 3 people a day and that is only if they work 8 hours days. 24 hours in a day, divided by 8 hours is 3. I don't know a production worker that works 8 hour days. When harvesting wheat, it's more like 20 hour days. At 12 hour shifts, you can only work an equivalent of 2 people. And how many days can you do that? Not many. By the end of the first you will already be behind, as you will have hit a point of limited return.

So in this situation, not hiring willing and legal workers is only hurting yourself. No one will win, you only lose more.

There is a range of immigrant legal workers that is good, too little we don't reach necessary production. Too much and it can affect the local workforce.

I don't have sympathy for people because they can't find work they want and aren't willing to lose their pride and just take what they can. That is a big problem. Very, very few unemployed people that are serious about wanting to work.

I have seen a few people turned down for jobs because they were "over qualified". I sort of understand that, but I can't stand to see it happen.
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Re: Thought Mexico was building the wall

Postby callmefence » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:52 pm

Commercialfarmer wrote:
callmefence wrote:
Jogeephus wrote:This has been quite interesting thread especially with the work I've been doing lately where I had to put a crew together to help with some field work. And YES! I put together a 100% american crew and man did they say they were eager to work for the pay I'm paying. I felt good about it. Had high hopes. However as the start time approached excuses began fly so I delayed starting for two weeks to give everyone time to get over their holiday conflicts then we were to start on a Monday. However on Friday, one of my key American guys decided he didn't want the job and took another job. Another, got thrown in jail after being shot at a New Years Eve party. Then another got back on drugs and was thrown in jail and since he was already on probation for drugs he was going on another taxpayer funded vacation leaving his three kids behind for us to clothe and feed. Then another informs me I'll need to pay him cash because if he gets a check it'll mess up his disability check. My American house of cards crumbled.

Thankfully, a retired guy stepped up to the plate to work. Because of our screwed up convoluted tax system he had to talk to his accountant and have his retirement annuities stop paying him because any extra income would hurt him. (Penalized for work. Doesn't that sound all to familiar?) I don't understand this but it didn't seem like a big deal to him. He is now my foreman and is making a good lick.

As for the others, some of you will be happy that I didn't hire Mexicans. Yes, I feel good about this. Last time I hired Mexicans I got them through the US Migrant Worker's Agency here in town and they all turned out to be illegal. So, NO I'm not repeating that mess again. Nope, this time I hired Guatemalans. Legal ones with green cards at that. Its been so nice not hearing any whining and complaining. No one has layed out yet. Everyone shows up on time. I've been so pleased with these guys I've been giving them all bonuses each week and believe it or not production has increased to the point where these bonuses aren't actually costing me anything.

Before some idiot hammers me for not hiring 100% american cupcakes, I will say I believe we need a strong border and shouldn't let just anyone in the country. Immigrants and workers need to be thoroughly vetted but I don't think a wall or anything else will work until we demand that the government do their job and deport all illegals when they are caught rather than coddling them and finding them jobs. This is BS. We also need a sane tax policy in this country where you are not penalized for working and where employers are not fined for hiring people. Yes, I pay a fine for each person I hire. Its not but $29/head but that is BS. We also need to revamp the welfare system and all these other entitlement programs. Just like this "disabled" guy who wanted cash. Shyt, if he is disabled then I'm superman - and I'm not!

There is a lot wrong with our system. I don't have the answers but I do think we have enough laws on the books that if the gov't would just enforce these laws a lot of this would take care of itself. Sanctuary cities should be barred from receiving any and all federal monies.

All I know is I deal with perishable products and don't have the luxury to wait around till I find reliable "american workers" to get the job done. Its sad, but that's just the way it is.



Sounds like you lost 4 guys. Personally I would have worked night and day, my wife would have been there to. We probably would have got the job done faster and more efficiently.
Would have been sore, but we wouldn't have been importing immigrants .
Who's really the lazy one..



There's probably 95 things out of a hundred we would agree upon.

But I have a question on this subject. IF you can't find Americans to work and you are paying an honest days wages for an honest days work, why would you penalize yourself and not hire legal green card workers?

Who are you hurting to hire legitimate non-citizen willing workers? I don't see who you could be hurting. And here is why.

They are paying taxes. It isn't under the table if they are legal and you are reporting their wages. So taxes are coming out. As I understand it, there is very little if any benefits they will get back from the confiscated taxes. If they are green card holders, they will be going home. There is no retirement benefits. Their kids aren't taking up education funds in our schools. Americans will benefit as they are getting tax income without having the liabilities.

There is always a point reached that your production is hampered as you increase the number of hours you work. I work too many hours and reach it consistently. The more hours I work after that point, the less productive I am per hour.

At most, you can work the equivalent of 3 people a day and that is only if they work 8 hours days. 24 hours in a day, divided by 8 hours is 3. I don't know a production worker that works 8 hour days. When harvesting wheat, it's more like 20 hour days. At 12 hour shifts, you can only work an equivalent of 2 people. And how many days can you do that? Not many. By the end of the first you will already be behind, as you will have hit a point of limited return.

So in this situation, not hiring willing and legal workers is only hurting yourself. No one will win, you only lose more.

There is a range of immigrant legal workers that is good, too little we don't reach necessary production. Too much and it can affect the local workforce.

I don't have sympathy for people because they can't find work they want and aren't willing to lose their pride and just take what they can. That is a big problem. Very, very few unemployed people that are serious about wanting to work.

I have seen a few people turned down for jobs because they were "over qualified". I sort of understand that, but I can't stand to see it happen.


You are correct c.f..
About 10 years back I hired a Hispanic immigrant with the proper documents. Upon a closer look the I'd # on his documentation were exactly the same as another I had. Counterfeit.
Also I was taught by the man that mentored me that you have to be careful about creating your on competion. This is a real problem in small construction. Illegals can do the same job under the radar. They do it without capital or credit by convincing the customer to put money up front. They have no insurance, don't pay taxes, unemployment or workmans comp insurance. I'm not going to help someone get a foothold who isn't playing on a even field.

Also it's my brand. When we went into business we spent huge on advertising.
We now spend nothing. We go to work everyday and stay weeks behind on word of mouth. ...there's three things I'm known for. I build your fence with my money, and I go home. After you have a chance to look things over you pay me...

2..The price is what we agreed on it never goes up because I hit a rock or whatever.

3. I'm careful about the people I bring on your property.

Last summer when gas drilling spiked I found myself alone for three weeks in August. And Yes it hurt. I built several miles in 100 plus heat but I got through it.
Its the way I do things and it works for me. I know I'm not making a difference in the overall scheme of things. But I do believe the immigrant worker is devaluing the blue-collar worker. I guess I'm just hardheaded. But I think if more would do the same. And the government would end the welfare programs, thing just might get right again.

But yes c.f. sometimes I'm hurting myself...agreed
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Re: Thought Mexico was building the wall

Postby Commercialfarmer » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:14 pm

hurleyjd wrote:
Caustic Burno wrote:Fence you will are supplemented by the government if you live long enough like it or not. Turn 65 and see where your health insurance comes from cause no one else will cover you.
We all are supplemented like or not when you do a tax write off that is a supplement from the government and some of the most questionable come from business and ag.
That is why we should pay a national sales tax no write offs no refunds no tax forms.
You spend a dollar you pay tax no matter who you are.


Agree we need a tax that does not requires the American citizens to spend billions of hours keeping records to pay the IRS. And then billions to have someone prepare the taxes because the rules are in constant change and the the professionals filling out the IRS forms have to go to school to update on all of the new rules.



You want to get rid at least 50% of the IRS and 90% of accountants?

Simple, but will never be implemented because of lobbying to create an unequal market place. That is the only reason for specialized deductions and rules- manipulation of the free economy. A desire to achieve a specific outcome. Whether it achieves that outcome is a different story, but that is the reason.

Create a reasonable % flat tax with no deductions across the board. Anyone can use a calculator to take your end of year income and multiply by x. Done! No need for an accountant. Businesses will need a little more assistance in figuring profits vs losses ect.. but final calculation is the same.


Want to get rid of 75% of welfare fraud?

Simple, but again will never be implemented because of vote buying.

Wipe every housing, food, or whatever assistance based on income off of the books. They no longer exist.
Standardize a minimal cost of living value. If you are a US citizen above the age of 18, you are guaranteed to receive this amount of money yearly in assistance if you have not produced this on your own. Guaranteed. No need to document hardship, or circumstances. If you are breathing, you have this at your disposal. But as I stated, it is a minimal cost of living. It will afford poor people food, poor people clothing and poor people housing. Which is it's purpose.

From this point, if you work, your guarantee is still guaranteed. But will be decreasingly less provided by government as you have increasing income. If done so, you are not penalizing people for working. There isn't a one for one trade off- such as you work for $10k, you lose $10k in guaranteed income.

Say the standardized minimal cost of living is $18k. You produce 1K in income. That income is taxed at 20%. 200 goes to the Treasury and they are now only sending that individual $17,800 for the year and they get to keep $800 of the original $1k so their total intake is $18600. Produce 10K in income, you have $2k in taxes that is paid to the treasury. Treasury sends check for $16000 to the individual, plus they have 8k in earned income for a total income of $24K.

Want a better appartment? There is no penalty to find some extra income. And it builds quickly. It will help people that want to help themselves and put in place a safety valve if their world goes to crap.

At 45K the money submitted to Treasury is a wash for the money received. Pay 9k in tax and they send 9k to individual. Your income is 45K.

At 90K, you no longer have any kind of offset. You pay $18k in tax and receive $0. You income is $72k.

It's a flat tax with graduated assistance and no penalty for working.

Only penalty would be for scamming the system by not reporting income. I could think of reasonable penalties such as loss of 1/2 of guaranteed income for 5 years first offense. Loss of 1/2 for 10 years second. Third, loss of guaranteed income for life.

Since corporations have no need for graduated assistance, and individuals will be paying personal income anyway, all money not passed directly to individuals could be taxed at 15%. It would keep our tax at a more competitive level than almost anywhere internationally driving businesses and their money into our system.

Where do all the IRS agents go? Private sector with a pay raise because business will be booming.

Oh, and no need to raise the minimal wage to rediculous amounts. Lower end wages will be competitive enough that the cost of mechanizing jobs with technology will not be worth the cost. And people will have work experience to help them advance as they age, vs just sitting at home and not even entering the job market.

If this is implemented by 2024, I may start my national campaign.
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Re: Thought Mexico was building the wall

Postby Ky hills » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:17 pm

I can only speak of local area situations as far as my knowledge of workers, and by and large most of the folks that are willing to work are working, and a significant number of others are more likely to be looking for work and hoping they don't find any.
Over the years, I have had some good loyal dependable workers who I call good friends, and still work with them now. A common topic of discussion around here by many business owners, farmers, and factory workers, is that it is very hard to find dependable workers. Many folks are receiving benefits that total to as much or more than minimum wage jobs so, and if they were to work they would lose many of those benefits, so there isn't an incentive for them to work. Drugs and alcohol are a major issue as well. I do believe that there are those who legitimately need assistance, but I do think it needs to be revised.

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Re: Thought Mexico was building the wall

Postby BK9954 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:27 pm

Okay, as an employer on the I-35 corridor in Texas, trying to staff my restaurant and also serve international tourist let me give my 2 cents. Secure the border 100% in favor. Get the cartel, Mafia, people smugglers and all the other stuff out of my great State. The sad fact is we have a generation of people here that dont want to work or get too much in hand outs from the government to work. I have always had people from Mexico working for me. Its part of working in restaurants in Texas. A lot of them work hard, they just need to come in legal, pay taxes and not qualify for handouts in my opinion. In order to immigrate here you should have something to offer to our society. Some people may not realize but our economy and Mexicos economy are intertwined. When the peso suffered this year, we had less tourist from Mexico. I work by outlet malls and when people come from Mexico for the holidays, THEY SPEND MONEY. They buy Polo, Nike a the name brand stuff because the Mexican government taxes the heck of it when you buy it there. When the international come in my restuarant they buy Ribeyes, cheesecakes, drinks, salads, appetizers and all kind of food when the Americans are buying the 6.99 specials with a senior discount. My sales and salary suffered this year when less people came cause the peso was 18 to a dollar. When the outlet managers come eat at my place they tell me the same, they are feeling the hit this year. Secure the border for illegals and drugs yes, but make it more expensive for tourist to enter I am not a fan.
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Re: Thought Mexico was building the wall

Postby Commercialfarmer » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:40 pm

callmefence wrote:About 10 years back I hired a Hispanic immigrant with the proper documents. Upon a closer look the I'd # on his documentation were exactly the same as another I had. Counterfeit.
Also I was taught by the man that mentored me that you have to be careful about creating your on competion. This is a real problem in small construction. Illegals can do the same job under the radar. They do it without capital or credit by convincing the customer to put money up front. They have no insurance, don't pay taxes, unemployment or workmans comp insurance. I'm not going to help someone get a foothold who isn't playing on a even field.

Also it's my brand. When we went into business we spent huge on advertising.
We now spend nothing. We go to work everyday and stay weeks behind on word of mouth. ...there's three things I'm known for. I build your fence with my money, and I go home. After you have a chance to look things over you pay me...

2..The price is what we agreed on it never goes up because I hit a rock or whatever.

3. I'm careful about the people I bring on your property.

Last summer when gas drilling spiked I found myself alone for three weeks in August. And Yes it hurt. I built several miles in 100 plus heat but I got through it.
Its the way I do things and it works for me. I know I'm not making a difference in the overall scheme of things. But I do believe the immigrant worker is devaluing the blue-collar worker. I guess I'm just hardheaded. But I think if more would do the same. And the government would end the welfare programs, thing just might get right again.


Agree, gaming the system is nothing but wrong, especially by someone that can skip town and the repercussions that follow. Very heavy consequences should follow. People worry about monopolies. Monopolies are dangerous to the purchase of product or service because of lack of competition by providers. Often making use of regulations to their advantage. But illegals ignoring regulations are also taking advantage and are just as dangerous of not having equal competition. It's the providers offering products and services in this exchange that are being damaged.

You can create your own competition. I get that concern. But I believe you are spot on in how you combat that by how you said you provide that service.

People pay money for familiarity and good word of mouth. I hate hiring people like plumbers, mechanics, electricians. I really just don't know until the job is done, what kind of work it will be and I really don't like that.

If I can find a referral from someone I trust, the sale is pretty much a guarantee.
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Re: Thought Mexico was building the wall

Postby Ouachita » Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:18 am

I have a very old log barn on the place. Rusty tin roof that leaks. I don't use it for anything except my quiet space. I placed a pot belly stove in it a few years ago. On rare occasions I have a few friends over, and we have a good time in that old barn, drinking beverages that'll make you go blind.
This here is a formal invitation to a barn party. The time will be set after enough of you reply with interest in a get together. The goal is to see who can sit furtherest from the stove and still make it ting and sizzle with tobacco spit. For those of you who don't use tobacco products, well you'll be allowed to pizz on the stove......and because you're a wiz, it'll be called a pizzing contest, in lieu of the more traditional spittoon ting contest. Lots of time to discuss the worlds problems. It'd be a great time. Shortest draw has to make the biscuits, gravy, and coffee.
If a really diligent man puts all of his energy into the exclusive effort, a molehill can be made into a mountain

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TexasBred
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Re: Thought Mexico was building the wall

Postby TexasBred » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:09 am

callmefence wrote:Walls have shown to be effective
http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/sta ... percent-r/

Have been to that wall. Very very impressive. Has guard towers on it as well and those Israelis will shoot your azz. The second shot is the warning shot.
“If it were up to me, I would put in jail every sandal-wearing, scruffy-bearded weirdo who burns the American flag.....“But I am not king.”....Supreme Court Justice Scalia


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