steer or bull

[bigbluegrass]

I bought some "steers" from a neighbor last spring for freezer beef. When I was looking at them, they had a little bit of a sack but no visible testicles. The one acted like a bull, the other acted like a steer. We took the one that acted like a bull to the butcher last month, he was getting very annoying and started tearing things up. When we butchered him, he had two small testicles - about the size of a month old calf testicles. Was plenty for him, I know he was not banded properly. The other one, I kept. He has shown no signs of being a bull. He acts just like a steer. He is the bottom of the pecking order and he doesn't seem to care.

Fast forward. Last night I could tell I had a yearling heifer coming into heat. First one. The plan is to AI them off natural heat. The steer is in with them, just because he really doesn't fit in with anyone else and they are about his age. This morning I was out checking on the heifers and the one coming in heat was standing and riding everything, as I had expected. That steer was right behind her. As I watched them, he got up to ride her and his penis was out of his sheath about 4 to 6 inches. He never penetrated when I was watching, but I am sure he could. Is this normal? I have never seen a steer with a visible penis at any time. Did the neighbor miss one or two on this one as well? Any ideas? Can he breed my heifers? Obviously time will tell for sure, but if it is possible I need him out of there and I need to come up with a plan. I don't really want to AI them if it is possible they are bred to this mongrel. I would know for sure who the daddy was, but it would be 9 months too late. I don't want any of his offspring! Would much rather pick out of the tank.

If he is or possibly could be breeding them, when can I lute them? Do I need to wait a week or two? If I lute them, is it going to delay their next heat? I don't really want them at the tail end of the cows. Maybe I can move this one into the fall herd. Would that be a safer bet?

TIA

[dun]

Wait 2 weeks and lute her, it won;t affect any subsequent heat cycles.

[Lucky_P]

Agree with dun - if you have any concerns about the possibility of this 'steer' being fertile, lute her 12-14 days out, and she'll be back in heat in a couple of days. Even if she conceived to the steer's service, that embryo will be aborted and a new, viable egg will be coming along, and there's no reason not to breed her on that heat, if it fits your breeding/calving season.

[bigbluegrass]

Thank you. That is kind of what I was thinking. Now I just have to find a place to put this misfit. Freezer seems to be the best choice I know he can't do much from in there

[dun]

I would definitly find a different neighbor to buy steers from

[bigbluegrass]

Yeh, no kidding! The thing is, when I looked at them I questioned him a few times if they were bulls or steers since they had a little sack left and the one I was almost certain I could see testicles in the sack. He assured me that he had gotten both of them and that the left over sack was just empty. I knife cut mine, so I wasn't really sure if that is what a properly banded one looks like or not. As soon as I got them to my place, I could tell the one was a bull. He was sniffing up all the cows and working them and pushing my bulls around, bellaring and pawing. The other one just hung back and never displayed anything - until this morning.

[M.Magis]

I had one last year that would do the same, unsheathed and all. He did start acting and looking more bullish in his last 6 months. I did check him one day in the chute, and I’m certain I felt one testicle, but I never asked the butcher to verify. However, no calves came from it. I think I got lucky.

[HOSS]

I may be wrong but I would assume that a bull that was banded improperly and the testicles are up in or very close to the abdomen would not be fertile? It would seem that the excess body heat would keep and sperm cells dead. It would be safeer to lute as dun said. When I band bull calves I make SURE that I count to two before releasing the band......and then I double check before I let the calf up. So far I have never had a problem.

[bigbluegrass]

Any way to tell if a steer/bull is fertile for sure - other than if they can settle a cow? If he is just shooting blanks, I would just AI her today. Otherwise.. lute and catch her next time.

[hooknline]

I may be wrong but I would assume that a bull that was banded improperly and the testicles are up in or very close to the abdomen would not be fertile? It would seem that the excess body heat would keep and sperm cells dead. It would be safeer to lute as dun said. When I band bull calves I make SURE that I count to two before releasing the band......and then I double check before I let the calf up. So far I have never had a problem.

They can and do breed all the time hoss. I would imagine they have reduce sperm motility but they can still nail one off when needed

[Chris H]

Any way to tell if a steer/bull is fertile for sure - other than if they can settle a cow? If he is just shooting blanks, I would just AI her today. Otherwise.. lute and catch her next time.

You could have the vet do a BSE and find out if he's fertile.

[Lucky_P]

Your description makes me wonder - were these calves banded, or 'clamped' (with a Burdizzo emasculatome)?
I do all of mine with the Burdizzo - it crimps the spermatic cords, causing damage to the cells lining the vessels and vas deferens, resulting in obstruction due to scarring, and the testicles atrophy. Scrotum remains - though if you do 'em young, there's not much there.
I have knife-cut calves that were 'clamped' earlier, and there will be small residual 'testicles, but they're mostly scar tissue.

Yes, if someone 'bands' incorrectly, pushing the testicles up above the band, there's less likelihood that the testicles will be able to produce normal sperm, due to inability to properly thermoregulate - but I wouldn't count on it rendering them totally infertile - and they'll certainly still be a 'bull'.

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

Our steers ride the heifers and have a regular extended penis that penetrates, so I bet he is still a steer if he has not exhibited any other signs of being a bull. We actually have been told to allow the steers to run with the heifers to keep them in shape (we show our steers at mostly small county fairs).

[bigbluegrass]

Lucky, I am not sure what method was used - banding or clamping. He could have said clamped and I just understood it to mean banded or it could have just been banded. I didn't notice a lot of scar tissue on the one we had butchered last time, but I wasn't really looking for it and it probably would have clung to the hide inside the remaining sack - which I don't recall cutting into, but I am sure it was. I did notice the testicles were about the size of a month old calf. There was a little sack. It is possible they were clamped, but either way the one we butchered displayed bull like tendencies - including exercising his penis on a regular basis. His fertility was probably not that great. I am pretty sure he could have bred a cow - but I may be wrong.

The one I have left has never done any of that. He has acted just like a steer. If he can't breed cows, I have no problem having him with the heifers. If he can, that is a problem. I have never seen a steer with an unsheathed penis. Maybe I have just never been in the right place at the right time to witness it. Is it possible he could just be a steer?

Fire Sweep - do you knife cut, band or clamp yours?

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

We cut at weaning, so we know we get both! Our steers do not act like bulls, but will try to ride and breed a female in heat, just like the heifers do. I bet your boy is just a good ol' steer having some fun...