C section disaster

[shadyhollownj]

Ok so we had our best cow that was four years old due in ten days. We walked out sunday morning and found her with feet hanging out. No big deal right. Gave her a half hour and no progress. I went in and felt no head. Into the headgate she went. I went shoulder deep and could barely reach the throat let alone a jaw. I am 6'1" so i got a long reach. Called the vet he showed up after three pages and finally a direct call got him. He reached in said he couldnt reach so asked me to try again. After five minutes he said lets cut her. I figured ok ive read all about them seen videos and they go pretty smooth. The calf is already dead we think cause its not moving the whole time we are reaching in. So he cuts her and then acts like he cant find the uterus. The rumen was blowing out of her like a balloon. he reaches in and finally finds the calfs head bent back and cuts near a leg and pulls the calf out dead as we thought. The calf was 78 lbs so nothing crazy BUT of course was a revolution heifer. So now the disaster starts. he is having me and the wife hold everything in while he trys to stitch up the uterus. We are practically passing out since its 90 degrees out the cow is moving and he is taking forever. i never thought trying to hold in a rumen would be so difficult. So it took two hours to stitch up the uterus. He said he really couldnt do a good job for some reason. So she was open for a total of three hours. He gave her some antibiotics and handed me a bill for 650 dollars. He didnt really act like we should be concerned about her health just about rebreeding. So today she was obviously in pain and panting but that was expected. At 5 oclock tonight she was found in the pen dead. So my question is is this how c sections always go cause he was like they are always like this. Not to mention this was our first heifer calf we bought for the farm four years ago and we treated her like one of our kids. We have around 30 head now but this one hurts. So i know im mad at the moment but should I be is the question?




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[CKC1586]

Woulda, coulda, shouldas will drive you crazy. Hate that this happened to you. Was this the vet you normally use?

[rockridgecattle]

Three things come to mind
1. was the cow properly restrained and not Squeezed? Was it just a head gate attached to the wood posts? Did the vet have proper access to the cow's side? I ask because I have seen farmers who just have a head gate attached to a wooden chute
2. Was this an overly fat cow? In really good condition? A heavy eater?
3. What side did the vet work on. If you are behind her which side? Was this the only accessed side?

Pets have a tendancy to be over conditioned. If this was the case, the vet did the best he could on a farm call. Outcomes vary greatly when on a farm call without proper restraints compared to a clinic with proper restrains or a farm with the proper equipment.

[shadyhollownj]

So to answer the questions the cow was in a head gate with two gates on either side of her. We took one side off her left so he could get better access. The system is a chute system but not a squeeze chute. He had access anyway he wanted. Her condition was probably a 5-5.5. She was out with all of the other cattle so she was treated no differently than any of our 30 mommas. She was our first and most expensive but got no preferential treatment. I get all the questions but he was actually impressed with our system and her condition he even said so. I have seen all the other half ass set ups by my neighbors but if it was anything like that I would put the outcome on myself. They are out on pasture now but nothing special. So after the answer to these questions do cows typically die 24 hours later from a c section. I mean i could see days later from infection from one reason or another but so soon makes me think she had internal bleeding or something. The wife and her friend are even trauma nurses and didnt really think it should have gone the way it did. Oh and its not our typical vet but he was the one on call. Their is only two vets in 4 counties that do large animals and deal with the dairies. We do all of are AIing, shots, palpating and anything else that needs to be done in our headgate chute system. My neighbors even bring there cattle over to use ours when they have a problem. So basically I wouldnt put it on our system at all or how we raise our cattle. We are a small producer but not a stupid one. As far as my statement about the cow moving around that was after 3 hours in the headgate and the rompin wearing off. I have seen the problems with pets and over conditioned animals. My neighbor loses at least two calves and a cow each year and he only has ten head. H e feeds them like they are on a feedlot and swears he has the best stock around. Thanks.

[regolith]

The only bovine c-section I've ever seen died like that... but there were reasons for it; I doubt it's a normal outcome (she'd calved about four days before and hadn't had the twin, the calf was rotting inside her).
There was no issue at all with the rumen or stitching her up & he poured in a whole hundred cc bottle of oxytetracycline before starting stitching.

[hooknline]

Sounds like everything was done to Te best of everyone's ability. Sometimes it just doesn't work out.

[Lucky_P]

C-sections were something I never liked doing. Even if everything went like clockwork, the possibility for ultimate failure was always there - and no way to really predict the outcome.
I've done sections on cows with dead emphysematous fetuses that came through the ordeal in great shape, but did one on one of my own heifers that wouldn't dilate - got a live calf, and everything seemed to have gone perfectly - but the cow was dead less than 24 hrs later.
Oftentimes, I regretted not doing a C-section right off the bat, instead of wrestling with a malpresentation for an extended period before finally deciding to 'cut'.

Always did mine on the ventral midline - knocked the cow out with drugs, rolled her up on her back, stretched her out with legs tied. Could do one, without complications, in 45 minutes, from first cut to finishing suturing the skin. Never did a flank incision - and while I know how, I've never seen one done that way - can only imagine how tough it would have been for me to do one on a big cow.
Always worried about the abdominal wall closure breaking down, but only had that happen one time.

Bad deal, but I suspect your vet did the best he/she could in the situation.

[snake67]

So to answer the questions the cow was in a head gate with two gates on either side of her. We took one side off her left so he could get better access. The system is a chute system but not a squeeze chute. He had access anyway he wanted. Her condition was probably a 5-5.5. She was out with all of the other cattle so she was treated no differently than any of our 30 mommas. She was our first and most expensive but got no preferential treatment. I get all the questions but he was actually impressed with our system and her condition he even said so. I have seen all the other half ass set ups by my neighbors but if it was anything like that I would put the outcome on myself. They are out on pasture now but nothing special. So after the answer to these questions do cows typically die 24 hours later from a c section. I mean i could see days later from infection from one reason or another but so soon makes me think she had internal bleeding or something. The wife and her friend are even trauma nurses and didnt really think it should have gone the way it did. Oh and its not our typical vet but he was the one on call. Their is only two vets in 4 counties that do large animals and deal with the dairies. We do all of are AIing, shots, palpating and anything else that needs to be done in our headgate chute system. My neighbors even bring there cattle over to use ours when they have a problem. So basically I wouldnt put it on our system at all or how we raise our cattle. We are a small producer but not a stupid one. As far as my statement about the cow moving around that was after 3 hours in the headgate and the rompin wearing off. I have seen the problems with pets and over conditioned animals. My neighbor loses at least two calves and a cow each year and he only has ten head. H e feeds them like they are on a feedlot and swears he has the best stock around. Thanks.

Hmmm .... must have participated in at least 15 - 20 C-sections in my life - never lost one. I have only done one completely by myself, but have helped the vet many times at my place - nearly 50 years of cattle - bound to have a few C-sections. Worst year we had around 3-400 animals we had three C-sections maybe only two but three seems to stick in my mind.

We use a squeeze that we can drop one side down and open up only the top half - keeps the cow in one place. Ours is pretty basic - but I do like the Hi-Hog squeeze. Had this one for at least 10 - 12 years.

Shave her back of the last rib - load her up with Lidocaine (we really like this stuff) along her back and down the full length of the incision for freezing and cut vertically. Skin first then the muscle wall. Careful to not cut into anything else. Add freezing if you think it is going to take more than 30 - 40 minutes to do the whole thing other than the final sewing up on completion

Keep the cut small enough to prevent the stomach from rolling out. Dig a little for the uterus and make as small a cut as possible to pull the calf. Assistant pulls the calf out while the other holds all the pieces in. Second person then holds the rumen while the first sews the uterine wall up. Then sew up the muscle wall from bottom to top. Dump in a couple of bottles of Pen G - right into the cavity. Finish up the muscle and then sew up the skin. Hit her with a big amount of intramuscular Pen G and leave her penned up for a week with lots of water and just a little hay - to keep the weight and bulk on her side and stomach down a bit.

We hit the cow with Pen G every day - some folks like the LA but I go with Pen G - probably just because I have always done it this way.

Confirm he went in on the left side?

If he did basically what I wrote - it sounds like he either does not do many or he made some cuts too big - making control of parts and pieces a bit difficult.

From what you say I would be disappointed - sounds like she was in reasonably good shape and healthy. This should have been a bit if a breeze for the average vet.

I know when you have livestock you will have dead stock - but this one would have p!ssed me off a bit. Especially if I had been there to help.

Hint for you. That slippery rumen is easier to handle if you have some big dry beach towels to help hold it in place. Gives you a better grip.

Anyways, if he did roughly what I outlined it should not have ended the way it did - sounds like there was some bleeding internally. He said something about a poor internal sewing job (?) - wonder what he cut into by accident that he did not mention to you?

Do it right, and the cow will stand and chew her cud while you are cutting - never even hardly twitch. If she does twitch, there is not enough freezing in my opinion. Almost everyone of the girls that we operated on and then kept was able to breed back.

Hot? Cool her with a hose on the front end and around her bag and belly - low pressure straight out of the hose and not a spray - keeping the water out of the working area. A couple wet towels will help if it gets real hot - just keep soaking them while they sit on her neck and shoulders. Steady stream works well.

Best of luck to you if it happens again

Hope you never have another one

Stay safe

Bez

[rockridgecattle]

Just thought of a possible reason, one among many. A head back delivery can cause alot of problems for the cow One problem could have been a missed tear in the uterus

[randiliana]

That does sound like a long time to get her stitched back up. We had 2 c-sections this year, and probably 3 or so others in the past 15 years or so. We have never lost a cow yet and I think have also saved all the calves. We've had several different vets perform them over the years, and this year had 2 different vets. The first c-section this year was a long drawn out thing. The vet couldn't get a hold of the calf easily, he was on the right side of the cow instead of the left (usual) and she just couldn't get a good enough grip and he was so big he was hard to move. She ended up cutting the uterus open blind so she could get a chain around his feet and pull him over. The second vet was our usual vet and he had no problems, but then the calf was laying on the left side of the cow. Both heifers have since recovered and 1 is raising her calf, the other we sold the calf and we are fattening her and will cull her out of the herd later this summer. The jury is still out on the one raising her calf, I say cull but DH wants to keep her.

[Lucky_P]

randi,
If the cow recovers and breeds back, I didn't necessarily recommend culling just because she had to be sectioned.

However, with heifers, it's a bit different. Even if the C-section was warranted because of an incorrectable malpresentation, instead of fetal/maternal oversize, there's just something about a fetus traversing the 'birth canal' that 'opens' those heifers up - provided that they calve out before the pelvic bones fuse, around 27 months of age. If a heifer doesn't deliver vaginally - whether on her own, or with assistance - I always worry about whether or not she's gonna 'repeat the performance' next time out, and there may be less 'wiggle room', due to those pelvic sutures being fused. So...I'm less inclined to keep a sectioned heifer, unless she's something pretty special.

[shadyhollownj]

So I spoke to a few neighbors with cattle yesterday. Supposedly the vet that did the section is a vet as a second career. He doesnt really have that much experience with cattle and neither does my vet as far as major procedures go. That would have been good to know from the start if he wasnt comfortable doing it. So Pretty much since im in jersey and there is no qualified vets as I learned the hard way I have to take my animals to penn state new bolten campus. Its only around an hour and a half away so I guess its feasible. At least it will be done by the best vets around with the best technology. I still am be nice and think that a vet should at least be honest and tell you what they can and cant do. Thanks for the replies.

[milkmaid]

I've seen some live, some die... the vet's experience and the cow's condition (ie, has she had a dead, rotting calf in her for 24hrs in the middle of summer?) play a large part in it. Saw about a dozen cut last spring as soon as it became obvious there were problems (breech calf, too large, etc - sometimes c-sectioned about an hour after labor started) and all lived and did great. Have to have a good vet AND have to give the vet a cow with the best chance of recovery, as early as possible in labor.

[Beef Man]

This discusion is more than a little humorus to me as here in east Mt. a few years ago most of our Vets did 50-150 c-sections a spring season. Those were the days of the first chars, simmys, and the worst were the very first chis. some even had a table to lay the heifer down with. The question to the vets in those days was "how many cee's have you done this year Doc"? These last few springs things are about normal and a good vet clinic probably do 10-20 a year. Mostly malpresentation's and once in awhile just to much calf for a heifer. One thing here that all ranchers really watch is birthweight,calving ease, and just comman sense on what type of bull they use on those first calf heifers. One thing that I am pretysure of that the Vet in this disscusion is not a large animal vet. One of our older vet's once told me that when the exotics first came he could do 3 cee's and a prolapse and only needed a galon of cold water. Mostly on the end of a 30 ft. lariat rope.

[Lucky_P]

BeefMan,
You're right - MT is WAY different from the backwoods of AL/TN/KY - where I've spent most of my career, and most 'cattle producers' have some cattle because they have a piece of land - not because their livelihood depends on 'em.
A buddy of mine, a couple of years ahead of me in vet school did his preceptorship in a practice in MT. Got to do 50 or more C-sections in that short 3 month stint - but, he said, those folks had those heifers up close, watched 'em close, and KNEW when there was a problem - and hauled 'em to the clinic right away.
Not saying shadyhollow did this, but way too many of 'em that I sectioned when I was in practice had been laboring way too long before the owners found her, or they'd monkeyed around in there for a while before calling me - or, as a fairly new graduate, I monkeyed around in there for too long before finally deciding to do a section, when that option should have gone on the table pretty much right out of the box.