Cow size and what bulls to pick for them

[Ozhorse]

I put an intro to myself in the “Hi, Im new here” section. I am from Australia, and I run 120 Angus cows plus sheep. I have only been farming my own place for 5 years so there is a lot of learning going on.

The stock agent is encouraging me to breed growthier, larger cows as my current herd tend to be the dumpier old fashioned black Angus. On the other hand, the saying is that if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

Most of our cows have hardly ever seen a bag of fertilizer or improved pastures in their lives, bred a calf every year despite the drought (Australia), out of 480 calves born in 4 years have never had to pull a calf, have around a 98% weaning rate which is not unusual in this area, are quiet, easy to manage, stay in the fences and often beat me to the yards because they know I put a bit of hay there, and do all this with sheep running underneath them.

This is not a flash looking herd, I go easy on them and give them a 12 week joining but all but 3 or 4 would calve within 9 weeks anyway. Their calves are not the biggest at the Special annual calf sales, but they are not embarrassing either, and as I say I don’t have improved pastures for them and they compete with sheep. Large pens of even sized black calves are what bring the $.

Because I run sheep, which bring in most of the money, in an average year there are not many paddocks that will take more than 20 to 30 cows with calves at foot – so this means I need at least 4 bulls – really I need more as if one goes down with a foot abscess, which they do as soon as it rains and the bulls are older and heavier – I am probably better off with 6.

Yes/No?

This is a really cold area with long hard winters. The calves are born in late winter and are sold at the calf sales in early Autumn. I have to get the cows and calves on the good grass while the bulls are out in Spring. So I think I need too many bulls for the number of cows BUT I am not really looking at the bull/cow ratio but the paddock/cow/calf/grass ratio.

The only year the herd had 10% not calving was AFTER the drought when the stock were all fat at joining, it was wet and one of my 4 bulls went down with a bad foot abscess first week of joining, another was his first season and he took a while to get sorted and a third probably had a minor foot abscess that slowed him down.

The agent wants me to get bigger growthier bulls and avoid the more traditional angus bulls.

Ooops, forgot to say that we breed our own replacement heifers. (Perhaps we should not ? How do I judge this question?)

There are so many questions I will pick a few for this post:

Am I likely to give my herd calving problems it currently does not have by chasing larger frame size in cows?
Am I better judging a cow on her calves than on what she looks like?
Obviously I want large calves at 7 months old when I sell them, but my stock agent reckons that repeat buyers at the calf sales will remember if my calves don’t grow out well for buyers after the sale so I should have some focus on size and growth.
Do I really want larger cows?

[Isomade]

Well, I'm not in Australia, and environment plays a big part in the cattle business. But from what you describe running cows with sheep I would NOT change up my operation for bigger growthier calves if it were me, especially since you are holding back heifers. It sounds like what you are doing is working for you very well. I would much rather have an easy keeping set of cows than a herd that continually got bigger and required more inputs or less cattle. Pay attention to the $EN EPD when selecting herd bulls and stay your course. If you do decide to go with growthier bulls I would make them terminal and buy replacements, but I like what you are currently doing better.

[hooknline]

"The stock agent is encouraging me to breed growthier, larger cows as my current herd tend to be the dumpier old fashioned black Angus. On the other hand, the saying is that if it ain’t broke don’t fix it. "

Hahahhaa. Don't try so hard next time.

[agmantoo]

Stick with what works for you and what you know that your place can support. I had rather have the predictable results you now are enjoying than what potentially MAY work. Conforming may make you more acceptable at the coffee shop but I doubt that it will improve your finances. I had rather sell a profitable 550 lb weaned calf than a unprofitable 700 lb weaned calf. I never intend to be the midwife to a cow nor do I intend to purchase high input supplemental feed to produce something that will not create a greater profit for me. Continue your efforts to be a low cost producer of what is working at your place. You will be better served. I once had a very smart successful man with no formal education share his wisdom with me and I have been grateful ever since. I asked him how I was ever going to get ahead? A few days later he told me "to get ahead you need to have something working for you when you are not working". I believe you are there now! Stick with what you got.

[KNERSIE]

I think you are where most of us want to get back to with our cow herds. You can always select your best 40 cows, breed them to a traditional type angus bull for replacements and join the rest with taller leaner growthier bulls, but, and it's a big BUT, treat all those calves sired by the latter bulls as terminal calves and sell them to the feedlots.

You have a real opportunity to utelise crossbreeding for the terminal calves, why not look at limousin bulls?

[Galloway2]

Sounds like they are working just fine. If your calves have been selling to your liking, the buyers must want them. Larger framed cows will not make you more money. IMO

[wbvs58]

What weight are your calves going at the weaner sales? I calve in July/August and sell at Warwick live weight sale in Autumn so far I have avoided the weaner sales. I aim for 300kg weaning (at home) which in most seasons is easily achievable from even my more moderate frame cows. I find that after 300kg the cents/kg drops off. Around here at the weaner sales, the calves up around the 360kg were born in May/early June. The most important thing is to be able to produce a nice even line of calves.
Have you thought about chasing the premium by being EU accredited.
With bull selection, I would not chase extreme size, but I would not be looking for small bulls. As long as they are reasonable quality and you keep replacement heifers and look after them, giving them every opportunity to produce calves and grow at the same time. I think you will be surprised at the progress you make in the quality of your cow herd in a relatively short time.
Ken

[Ozhorse]

Thanks for your opinions and wisdom, they are confidence building. I had the feeling that I should hasten slowly when it came to making changes to the cows.

I also like the tips on using terminal bulls vs heifer replacement bulls. The market is very conservative around here. Hardly anyone uses first cross cows and terminal bulls. One family down the road puts charolais over their angus and get huge white calves but I don’t see them sold locally. A friend of mine sneaked in a polled black Limousin bull to try. He has a different operation and pasture and keeps his calves on himself so is very focused on growth and size. I will see how his Limousin x calves go

@ Ken
We calve from mid August, bulls out November 1st. Calf sales are late March, early April. I have been weighing the calves for the last 2 years. The heifers averaged 260 kg (570lb) this year and 275 (600 lb) last year and steers 275 (600 lb) this year and 290 (640lb) last year (sold about 3 weeks earlier in 2011).

Now that my cow numbers are up again after the drought I could tighten the calving and cull later cows to even off the calf size. Since the rain seems to be staying here I could put the bulls out earlier. We cant really guarantee spring grass here until October but July calving is OK in good years.

I have not thought about EU accreditation – I will look into it. Where does one find the information?
Thanks for the bull advice.

[DOC HARRIS]

Ozhorse-

As with almost ANY "Search" protocol for information, log onto any Search engine ( Dogpile.com is the one I prefer), and type "EU Accreditation".

DOC HARRIS

[wbvs58]

Oz, AQIS manages it, here is a link to their info.http://www.daff.gov.au/aqis/export/meat/elmer-3/eucas
Your weights are good, bearing in mind you are calving about 6 weeks later than me. Like you, our summer pasture does not get going untill well into October. If the clover doesn't happen, Sept/October can be our toughest months. As I said previously the calves that sell for the headline prices at the weaner sales are a lot older and often EU accredited. Still at the weight you are selling, your calves should be very popular, your cents/kg should be pretty good. My preference so far has been to sell at liveweight sales, you get paid for the weight. The feature weaner sales that sell on a per head basis are good for the well known lines of cattle that regular buyers chase, but the lesser known vendors don't get the same interest.
As far as your problem with a heifer bull. The injuries you have had, I think are a bit of bad luck. For your 40 heifers, a 2yr old bull would be a little overworked, but I am sure he would get through them allright. By joining time they should all be over 300kg and should handle a 700-800kg 2yr bull ok.
I have a small herd of 40 females, when I have bought an Angus bull, I always go middle of the road for birthweight, I aim for +5kg birthweight EBV, I don't like them to be too far behind the eightball to start with. As long as the bull has both parents around that figure and not one at 8.5 and one at 2.5 to get the 5 average, that could be looking for trouble. Having a small herd the one bull has to do all and to date I have not had any trouble with heifers calving. Nowadays I am inseminating my registered cows and keeping a few bulls to sell so I have a few to chose from for my commercial cows and to use as clean up bull.
Ken

[novatech]

When one contemplates changes in breeding programs for any reason 3 factors should be considered.
Cost of beef production on a per lb. basis.
Quantity of lbs. produced.
The price received per lb. of beef.
Most people know this but never put the pencil to it.

[Old_man_emu]

OzHorse I have so many questions I don't know where to start.
In some regards, if it ain't broke don't fix it is true, but are there some adjustments that could be made to make a few extra dollars or even areas where you could save a few?
Firstly to some simple things. I would definately tighten up your calving. You say you can only run 20-30 cows per paddock so at those numbers you should be able tighten calving up. I wouldn't be afraid to go to 8 weeks, I personally join for six weeks and have had 100% ptic from a single bull on 45 cows.
You sound like you run a set stocked grazing system, that is spreading animals across a number of paddocks and leaving them for long periods? I would be considering rotational grazing, running larger mobs and moving them more often. This would mean multi-sire joining but your pasture should benefit signficantly.
If your agent is trying to get you to increase the size of you cows he will be trying to increase the size of your calves thus he is judging cows by their calves, right or wrong. What is your assessment of your calves and how they perform at the sale? There is also a correlation between cow frame size and calf maturity. That is early small cattle tend to be early maturing and so will their offspring and that will affect rates of growth and overall growth. This could be important if the buyer is backgrounding steers to then go into a longfed feedlot program, dumpy little steers get fat and don't make spec.
If your genetics are ok maybe there are gains to be made in the enviromental department. Based on the weights mentioned above your calve are averaging a kg a day from birth to sale, maybe you could add a little supplement or some pasture improvement to pick those cattle up. You could even split into steer and heifer mobs at marking if you can get the calves mothered right give the best pasture to the steers to get them going a little better.
Just out of interest, do you sell at Cooma special sale? It would help to consider some of the marketing options available.
Cheers
Brad

[Ozhorse]

Hi Brad

There is also a correlation between cow frame size and calf maturity. That is early small cattle tend to be early maturing and so will their offspring and that will affect rates of growth and overall growth. This could be important if the buyer is backgrounding steers to then go into a longfed feedlot program, dumpy little steers get fat and don't make spec.
That is exactly what the agent was on about. He thinks I should stay away from early maturing smaller bulls. I think he could be correct. I find it hard to tell if a cow is early maturing small type, particularly home grown cows on granite with not much fertilizer or pasture improvement. Sometimes I have been surprised at the size and weight of home grown young cows as I tended to think of them as small but by 4 they were decent cattle. An old style cow who has thrown undersize heifers to a small bull threw a whopper this year to a growthy bull (see Hi section). While my big stud cows generally throw some of the biggest calves sometimes they are beaten for calf size by very unremarkable smaller cows. So I think there is improvements to be made to genetics. But I don't want to loose the fertility or start pulling calves or loosing cows. I just not an option watching adult cows at calving - and I really don't want to have to watch the heifers either.

Because I single sire join and then shift bulls around and keep track of dates bulls were moved and a rough weekly count of who is born when I know roughly who Dad is and mum of course. I can actually work it out roughly from ultrasounds this year. It helps me monitor how various bulls are performing.

Yup, agree with you on tightening the calving. It came historically because half the cows were autumn March calvers in 2007, and being ignorant and new I just put the bulls out as soon as I saw calves and those old girls put a calf on the ground every 10 months in 2008 and 2009 were calving in October mostly, in 2010 I had a single joining of 12 weeks. So I sort of got in a habit and also trying to keep cow numbers up after drought agistment disaster. Now I can tighten and cull.

I sell at the calf special sales at Cooma. Different marketing is definitely an option I need to look into.
I have been happy with the calf special sales so far, and how the calves compared in those sales. Room for improvement of course.
Have not been happy with the regular Cooma cattle sales for getting rid of cows.
I have had a little to do with the cattle industry toward Tamworth and there seemed to be so many more options there for sales. Cooma seems excessively conservative in cattle breeds and so many fewer markets.

Thanks for the tip on separating steer and heifer calves. Another way to make improvements that does not cost.

Does castrating a little later help with steer weaning size? If so how much later?

Re rotational grazing - this year I have all the cows in one paddock at a time to knock the grass down. Other drought years it was just a case of sheep and cattle surviving and getting on as best we could. Sheep are primary here and cattle get to work around them. I cant wrap my brain around how to rotationally graze all the different classes of sheep. I don't set stock either and just go by what is most suitable for a particular class of stock in a particular season, but then I've only been farming since 2007 and things have been very various.

Pasture improvement - I look forward to the day I can fit that in the budget and I'm doing a fair bit of nose pressing on the shops with front end loaders in them - one day I'll get something with 110Hp cab, 4in1 bucket, powershift......

Do you have an opinion on cattle blocks or supplements like Anapro ? I have spent significant amounts of money on blocks in tough years and I feel the cattle need the minerals but I dont know if this is cost effective as if you get the total amount of mineral purchased and divide it by the number of cattle the amount per head is fairly insignificant. I cant work out how to make the cheaper loose lick urea supplements safe to feed out in the paddock.

[Old_man_emu]

I don't really have an opinion on mineral supplements and such other than to say that I think some work some of the time but not all work all of the time. I am lucky to be in a high rainfall area with improved and well fertiliser pastures. My cattle do well and I have never noticed any difference when I have put them out. As for the urea one, I used it at Bombala. We bought in a component of it in bags and mixed more urea in on a percentage basis. We feed it in covered troughs and if it ever got wet we got rid of it. The guys at Cooma rural should be able to help make it work for you.
On the grazing front, have you asked your DPI people about a course called Prograze? If you haven't done it I would think it would help a great deal. I am doing it for the second time and it covers and the sorts of things including pastures, grazing management, sheep and cattle breeding and nutrition, it's great!
The castration debate is an old one but I think the general consensus is that it doesn't make much difference except that the animals easier to handle when they are small and it is probably less stressful, I do mine at marking.
In terms of moving the bulls from one mob to the next, I am not sure I understand that. I would have thought leaving a bull with one mob of joining was easier on everyone. If a single bull in with 30 - 40 cows (not heifers or second calvers, they are a different issue) missed any more than 3 or 4 cows I would be conserned, any more than 5 and I would think you have a real problem.
As for pasture improvement and soil fertility, have you got any soil tests? current or old?

[robert]

Reading what you posted about where your herd is today and the sale weights you've seen for the past two years I'd say things are working nicely, I think you know already that eliminating the habitually late calvers will improve the consistency of the crop plus increase the average weight without taking a step that has the potential to destroy your already adapted and functional cow herd. I don't know much about marketing in Aussie and NZ, I spoke with a couple of stock agents in NZ a couple years ago when I was over there but it seemed that they were mainly promoting selling through their company, which middle man to choose? Do they get paid on a percent commission? If so I can see why he would be angling after you getting bigger calves, he's not the guy out there having to either pull calves as a result of that or buying extra feed to maintain a cow that no longer lives entirely off the land. Knersie made an excellent point about using a terminal target cross, if colored calves are discriminated against or Angus are preferred then you can always take your top 25% of cows to make replacements and put the rest in with more terminal type Angus, just don't keep the daughters no matter how tempting it is! I guess the final question is are you making money NOW, are the buyers of your calves, or bidders on your calves, the same each year or do they change? If the latter that MAY indicate buyer dissatisfaction with the progeny but if you can talk directly to your calf buyers that would help immeasurably. If the same folks are stepping up to bid or buy each year then the stock agents opinion is speculative at best.