Organic farming

[Commercialfarmer]

Step up..............start the thread.

Since you asked for the thread you must have some views on it. So I'll ask you, Why is organic food priced in grocery stores substantially more expensive than inorganic?

Now who knows what is the truth, but it is no longer working, and we have no replacement. The product of big business and dumb ass farmers not using their brains

If more commercial farmers looked at the organic farming methods and tried them then they would learnt to farm a whole lot better.

A lot of people know the truth, it just isn't popular to report. I'm interested in knowing what methods provide what benefit exactly? What is your goal in farming?

I do not know about your certification board regolith, however when I was growing organic crops it was certified by "The Soil Association". Lots of the emotive stuff and BS comes from the fact that most of the board is not made up of farmers.

We found that where as there are lists of things you can use and lists of things that you must never use, then the list of thing that you may use with permission, there was also the ability to make a case for special use of some of the things from the must never use list.
You would not be allowed to use roundup or prilled urea, but we were able to get permission to use some things. The issue being that it takes time and lots of paper work. If you waited until there was an issue then it is too late.

Not sure that you are making your case? If they are the experts, and they don't actually farm- how again are they the experts? And why would I want to follow their direction?

It is crazy, but some reason I keep thinking that farmers that produce the most bushels per acre year after year after year, are probably the best farmers and supply the world with the most affordable food. But I'm willing to learn.

[kciD]

how do I post a pdf?

[1wlimo]

The goal of any and every farmer should be to produce a product that is safe to eat, and to be able to do this year in year out.

I would say that the way much of he world is farmed the year in year out sustainability is in serious doubt. Soil degradation, loss of chemicals, being the main causes of these woes.

The organic principles are in the main to address these issues by building the soil, and use of rotation, and cultural control measures. In the main an established organic system can achieve these aims. Yields will generally be lower, how ever should be more stable.

Personally I prefer Integrated Crop Management (ICM) or Integrated Pest Management (IPM), where you use the main organic principle's with the intelligent use of commercial fertilizer and chemical controls. This way you can provide the nutrients for better yields, and have asses to chemical controls when required.

Following a chemically based system, with a mono culture, or two crop rotation is not and never will be sustainable. It leads to soil degradation, resistance in pest populations, and a bad public image. It is also a system where you are simply following the chemical companies and filling their profits.

[TexasBred]

Following a chemically based system, with a mono culture, or two crop rotation is not and never will be sustainable. It leads to soil degradation, resistance in pest populations, and a bad public image. It is also a system where you are simply following the chemical companies and filling their profits

Hungry or starving people seldom ask many questions about these concerns of yours.

[1wlimo]

Following a chemically based system, with a mono culture, or two crop rotation is not and never will be sustainable. It leads to soil degradation, resistance in pest populations, and a bad public image. It is also a system where you are simply following the chemical companies and filling their profits

Hungry or starving people seldom ask many questions about these concerns of yours.

You are correct however every civilization failed when they could not feed themselves as their farming systems failed

[TexasBred]

Following a chemically based system, with a mono culture, or two crop rotation is not and never will be sustainable. It leads to soil degradation, resistance in pest populations, and a bad public image. It is also a system where you are simply following the chemical companies and filling their profits

Hungry or starving people seldom ask many questions about these concerns of yours.

You are correct however every civilization failed when they could not feed themselves as their farming systems failed

yep..those were organic systems too.

[Douglas]

Organic farming can lead to improved soils or degraded soils depending on management. Same with conventional farming.

[ANAZAZI]

Organic farming can lead to improved soils or degraded soils depending on management. Same with conventional farming.

True words.

[regolith]

Since you asked for the thread you must have some views on it. So I'll ask you, Why is organic food priced in grocery stores substantially more expensive than inorganic?

All else aside - because they can. It's a 'value-added' product because of effective marketing to the masses. Just about every mother out there has learned 'organic is good', children are learning it in school and from their parents and friends - along with the whole 'save the world/protect the environment/keep things as they are for the next generation' mantra. This is the new peer pressure.
The other side of that... one of the myths of organic farming is that they can produce just as much as the commercial farmer once conversion is complete and the biology stabilised. As far as I can make out that is one of the lies... the same organic farmers who say that also claim they need the extra income because they're spreading their costs over reduced production, plus the not insignificant cost of certification and alternative chemical-free inputs.

I have no organic outlet for any of my products, but my experience thus far is that trying to do reasonable production off this farm can only come at high cost. That is because of the restriction in inputs I can use and the manner in which the farm has(n't) been managed in the past.

[cow pollinater]

The face of modern agriculture is "do more with less" and it extends to all areas of agriculture.
I personally find it irresposible to insist on all organic farming at the expense of a reduced yeild as we as farmers are burdened with the basis of civilization. Instead I do what WORKS... some is organic and some isn't:
Glyphosate is still a good investment towards keeping most weeds out from under my citrus trees but lacewings will do just as good of a job on most of my pests as any pesticide will so I'll go the organic route there.
When the codling moths hit the walnuts I'll spray and never look back because there is no organic solution that will compare to spraying them...but all my nitrogen on those walnuts comes from cover crop that gets disked back in as aposed to mined fertalizers. The green manure feeds longer.

People like to think that organic is everything good and wholesome and everyone else just dumps out pesticides on the ground. Some of the organic stuff is nasty stuff! But since it's made from natural compounds nobody has any problem with it. Cigaretts and alcohol are made from natural products to, if you were wondering.

Another thing that people often overlook, "Organic" is a business decision the same way that CAB is a business decision. There are organic farmers diligently striving to produce a quality product the same as there are angus breeders focussing on carcass and there are people buying neglected orchards(organic requirements here require three years of non-treatment with in-organic componds for certification so any completely neglected orchard qualifies) and selling the junk on the tree as organic for a premium.
A quality peice of fruit from someone who cares what you eat will beat all other fruit. It doesn't have to have an organic label on it to be good, healthy, and safe for the environment.
I have a distant neighbor that managed to get himself certified as an organic farmer of chicken eggs. He sells them at the farmers market for a premium because he hasn't treated any hens with anything in-organic in years... Every night during the summer he marches through his hen house with a store-bought can of Raid and blasts all the flies off of the ceiling. The flies fall and buzz in circles while the hens go ape-$hit running all around eating Raid covered flies... evey Saturday those eggs are for sale and they're certified organic!

[snake67]

A 20 year study by the Grits - notorious for being anal about their studies - states no advantage to eating organic.

Be that as it may .......

How do you doctor foot rot as an organic guy?

How do you do a ceasarian if you are organic?

Or do you simply remove the animal from the system and sell it?

What about treating wounds or using freezing to ease pain?

How about little things like disease prevention - blackleg - or injury problems like tetanus?

And - how are the weeds controlled? When you are being overrun with weeds and your neighbour has to put up with your dirty fields - who wins or loses? I deal with that on a daily basis due to what my neighbour does. Velvet leaf weeds 8 feet high in his corn fields and migrating to ours.

All of the above are serious concerns that are seldom addressed in a public forum to the satisfaction of many.

The organic guys in my area have actually been certified capable of using RoundUp as a dry down chemical - yet remain certified.

Just asking - be interested to see the responses

Bez

[regolith]

A 20 year study by the Grits - notorious for being anal about their studies - states no advantage to eating organic.

Be that as it may .......

How do you doctor foot rot as an organic guy?

How do you do a ceasarian if you are organic?

Or do you simply remove the animal from the system and sell it?

What about treating wounds or using freezing to ease pain?

How about little things like disease prevention - blackleg - or injury problems like tetanus?

And - how are the weeds controlled? When you are being overrun with weeds and your neighbour has to put up with your dirty fields - who wins or loses? I deal with that on a daily basis due to what my neighbour does. Velvet leaf weeds 8 feet high in his corn fields and migrating to ours.

All of the above are serious concerns that are seldom addressed in a public forum to the satisfaction of many.

The organic guys in my area have actually been certified capable of using RoundUp as a dry down chemical - yet remain certified.

Just asking - be interested to see the responses

Bez

I can answer a couple of those questions.
On footrot - I've treated eight cases of it in the last month. With penicillin. If I was organic certified for milk production and did that I would have to isolate the cow in a quarantine area and hold her milk out of the vat (I think I might be allowed to feed it to calves) and then sell her when she recovered.
I've tried iodine & decided it was a waste of time, tried the rope trick (clean the dead skin between the claws with a piece of rope then pour iodine in) and each time treated with penicillin the next day when she was worse.
I've withheld antibiotics and watched several cows with various issues this year. In most cases I've gone on to treat them and in maybe four? cases regretted not treating them straight away... now one of those was a cow I presented for vet examination believing she had a deep infection in her foot and the vet said it wasn't infected. I've since had to cull her - another vet four weeks later told me the infection had hit the bone in spite of the belated treatment. With very mild footrot I've got away with not treating a couple of times... and would have done the same as a conventional farmer. Those are the ones where there might be just slight heat in the foot, the skin isn't broken or only slightly rough and any stone present has been removed.

I was given sample bottles of a mix of essential oils that supposedly clears up mastitis in one day and costs more than antibiotics. Treated five cows. Went back to the salesman and said this stuff doesn't work. He says I'm the only person who's ever told him that and wouldn't accept the second bottle back. I've got a sample bottle of 'udder comfort' going free to anyone who wants to call round for it.

I've got thistles blowing seed everywhere. That is in spite of mowing and chipping them, some of those paddocks have been mown twice and had the thistles chipped out twice and they still come back... they're germinating in waves about three or four weeks apart and 75 hectares is way more than I can handle. Luckily that and about an acre of hemlock are the only major weeds I'm dealing with, unless you count the couch grass which the cows eat.

My vets say they use local anaesthetic and anti-inflams on organic farms.
I haven't tried the wonder products kelp, aloe vera or homeopathy. There's local research comparing intramammary antibiotics and homeopathy that shows the cure rate for homeopathy to be similar to the spontaneous cure rate for mastitis. A friend who has an organic farm has told me more than once "don't certify the herd if you don't have to". If there's a workable organic cure for mastitis available it's not commonly known. They lose the quarter or treat the cow and then sell/cull her if the other remedys don't work.

Vaccination is permitted. My impression is that it is discouraged, and the inspector who told me it was permitted said in the same breath "you just don't do more vaccinating than you have to, and use the simplest types available".
In the three and a half weeks between the time I first saw this farm and taking over the lease four weaner calves died of worms, as their owner refused to follow the advice to worm them (which may have been too late to save them anyway). I think he owned about twelve or thirteen calves total, I never noticed any tag numbers higher than 13.
Worming is permitted when it is needed, as shown by vet FECs. But as mentioned in the other thread, some of these guys have principles that they don't let little things like animal welfare or common sense trample on.

When I asked advice before taking this on, other organic farmers said animal health wouldn't be an issue, and that everyone worries when they first start. Been here ten months and I've seen more animal health problems than on any other farm since 2005 and haven't found any organic approved effective solutions. The herd is getting minerals, bloat oil, antibiotics, vaccinations, bought-in feed, wormer (calves only) to keep them alive and healthy. In 2005 I was managing a small herd on a highly stocked low input system aka 'controlled starvation'. Similar problems.

Sorry that was so long. I for one would be very interested to hear from organic farmers who have a system that works.

[Commercialfarmer]

I agree with what several posters have stated. By no means do I believe that any one production model works best in all scenarios and that some biological antagonists/agonists may be the most effective option in some instances. I've seen bindweed mites be effective at control.

But the amount of propaganda out there just gets my blood to boiling. People that have no clue what they are talking about (and some that are just purposeful) start making regulations and misinforming the public. I hate inefficiency and waste no matter where it is. I believe in being a good steward of the land and what has been given to me. I want to see abundance and for others to benefit from this as well. Some good farming techniques are just good farming techniques.

My concern is for efficiency, and honesty. Whatever is the most effective method in the realm of safe, is the best. We don't need a bunch of made up safety concerns that aren't legitimate. And I believe the majority of the material promoted by "organic" groups is just that, manufactured.

There was a big to do several years back about using radiation to sterilize food. The radiation doesn't stay in the food, it passes through but has an effect on the organisms. It is very effective, but so many people were up in arms because they were mis-informed. Now we have x-ray machines in every airport with no regulations or monitoring- and here is the important aspect- we (ourselves) are being scanned. The radiation again passes through us, but it has a dose dependent effect on our cells. Now is the time to be upset, but all we hear are crickets.....

What I don't need is some blow hard to try to force their imaginary crisis on me so that they can regulate something that is not theirs in the first place. If I run myself out of business, then you can be the first in line to buy the place show me how to make a profit by reducing my average yield.

The goal of any and every farmer should be to produce a product that is safe to eat, and to be able to do this year in year out.

I would say that the way much of he world is farmed the year in year out sustainability is in serious doubt. Soil degradation, loss of chemicals, being the main causes of these woes.

The organic principles are in the main to address these issues by building the soil, and use of rotation, and cultural control measures. In the main an established organic system can achieve these aims. Yields will generally be lower, how ever should be more stable.

Personally I prefer Integrated Crop Management (ICM) or Integrated Pest Management (IPM), where you use the main organic principle's with the intelligent use of commercial fertilizer and chemical controls. This way you can provide the nutrients for better yields, and have asses to chemical controls when required.

Following a chemically based system, with a mono culture, or two crop rotation is not and never will be sustainable. It leads to soil degradation, resistance in pest populations, and a bad public image. It is also a system where you are simply following the chemical companies and filling their profits.

I agree safety is important, but that is why research is performed. We have the safest food supply of any civilization ever in the history of man. If you need to prove this to yourself, you can do your own research. But out of curiosity, did you hear about the organically grown spinach recall infected with E.Coli 0157? Probably not. I was looking for documentation on it and found the following article that sums up a lot of my thoughts.
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/ ... icle/7569/

Sustainability....
You know, we have a few farms that my great grandfather farmed. It is funny that after all these years, they still produce at record rates compared to most countries in the world. Oh, and it has been in either wheat or rye for the past 40 years for sure. I sure wish someone would have told me before now.

Soil loss....
I will ask you to state what techniques are you referring to being compared. Farming practices have changed over time and what is conventional now is not what was performed 100 years ago. We don't have an issue with soil loss. We even allow some growth on our agriculture land for summer grazing and then spray it mid way through the summer. We leave dead foliage on top and have great success.

building the soil...
There is information out of Africa that showed new soil was improved significantly more and significantly quicker by using inorganic fertilizer, because it supported more biomass from the ground. This in turn, held more water and supplied/held nutrients.

esplain somthing to me Lucy... if I purchase something for x dollars and it gives me back x + 20% profit, how is that a bad investment? Those big bad "chemical" companies just provided me income and produced more available food for the world population. How is that bad? Just because they also made a profit while performing a service? Okay, I get it. Food for the hungry is morally bad.

Bad public image? Your still lost on that one. The only thing bad is that you are going to change your practices and attempt to demand that others do as well because of mis-information. I never really worried about what others thought of me and have made it a heck of a lot farther than many of those that did. 50% of the world is below average intelligence. It is comforting to know that you are so concerned about their opinion and willing to bet your financial future on that.

Uh... and how do you justify the fact that you just admitted to having lower yields in general (even though stable? How many years do you have results to prove this stability? And you have yet to convince me, my yields are not stable). Anyway, for you to produce as much as I, you admit it will require you use more acreage. Isn't that more harmful to the environment in your world?

Sorry I'm just a farmer.

Food for thought. The Earth is tougher than you and will be here long after you are not. Whether you believe the earth is several thousands of years, millions, billions, or even trillions- it had to be created/developed at some point. Unless you believe it just appeared out of nothing and automatically had trees, grasses, animals, fish, etc....
During the creation/development, there was a point that the Earth somehow existed without a liberal to save it. It even developed into what it is now. It appears to have an amazing capability of regeneration and return to its natural order. You hear constantly how civilization is killing the earth. But what I find amazing is how the Earth destroys civilization. There is little to no evidence of some of the greatest ancient civilizations that occurred. And the evidence- it isn't just laying around. You have to dig deep in the ground. Metal rusts, wood rots, concrete becomes brittle and it all gets covered up and swallowed. Rain washes, dissolves and dilutes. I grew up near a little ghost town that was busy when my dad was young. The only evidence now is some partial slabs of concrete that is barely visible. Most of the slabs are busted up with trees and weeds growing through them. Someone forgot to tell them that they couldn't grow there, that people ruined it. The builders probably even used materials from some evil corporations. Maybe you can persuade the plants to stop returning to natural order by telling them it is bad for the public image.

[Commercialfarmer]

I didn't mention organic farming in regards to animals. It is my belief that you are morally wrong to not provide the quickest, effective, treatment for an ailment of an animal that is reasonable. Withholding treatment should be considered abuse.

Once the animal is treated, in an "organic" system it should be culled or organized with non-organic production animals.

[Richardin52]

We are organic with regard to veggies on our farm. The paper work is not fun. We have found that if we sell our products locally organic does not mater because people know us and how we farm but the further away we sell or the less people know us the more that label makes a difference to people. Like it or not that's how it is right now.

The cleaner you keep an operation, food, water, living conditions, the fewer problems you have. Does not really mater if it's organic or not.

The industry started feeding low amounts of antibiotics to animals back in the 70's for one reason, to be able to grow them in less than favorable conditions and still keep them healthy.
That has lead to problems not only with creating super bugs but with the publics concept of industrial agriculture in this country and every time there is another food scare it just gets stronger.

The buy local movement is growing, in my mind faster than the organic movement. Thats because after the
feds got their hands on organic things changed. Lets face it the only reason the feds got involved with organic was because big cooperations wanted them to. Now you can buy organic eggs in wal mart that came from china and everyone knows the past problems with food from china.

This has hurt the organic movement and sooner or later because of federal and cooperate involvement using it basically as a marketing tool there is going to be a big problem, people will get sick and organic will loose even more ground.

So now the feds are starting to push laws that restrict small farmers. For instance two years ago in my state a small farmer could kill and process up to 1000 chickens on the farm and sell them. Then a law was pasted that stopped that. There had never been one case where anyone had ever gotten sick by the way.

Now our state (after a visit from the USDA) is telling farmers that they cannot sell even a gallon of milk to someone next door unless they get a distributors license. Again there has never been a case that the state can find where anyone has gotten sick in my state drinking raw milk but right now they are taking a farmer to court over this.