Synchronization Failure??

[bpwagner115]

Hello to all I am new to posting on the board however this has been my "go to" site for any questions. What an awesome board! I recently took an AI training class and started a sync program last week for a portion of our herd. I am using the select synch protocal with TAI. Here's the problem....I am exactly 2 days after the shot of PG and have ZERO estrus response. We have been very consistent in heat detection morning noon and again in evening and have installed estrotect patches as well. We even turn in a feedlot steer yesterday to see if we were just not seeing the signs. NOTHING. Our TAI date is set for tomorrow evening or monday morning and I don't have a clue what we are going to do. Obviously not throw 500 dollars of semen into cows showing no signs of heat. I have stuck my neck out in trying to advance my fathers calf crop and instead I feel humiliated! Any suggestions, advice, explanations??

PS: they are 30 1st calf heifers who are 60-90 days post calving in what i would consider acceptable body condition.

Thanks for your help.

[Red Bull Breeder]

Give them time.

[hillsdown]

I would only breed on seen heats amd the rest your clean up bull can get.

[dun]

66 hours after pulling the CIDR and giving the PGF2 AI them and give a shot of GnRH. That's what the timed AI is all about. This year ours didn;t show any sign at all at around 60 hours but were all going nuts by 66.

[bpwagner115]

My mistake, I meant to type clean-up ai and not TAI. But your comment is very interesting dun. about no heat at 60 hours.

[bpwagner115]

Well now at 72 hours after pg. No observed heats. I have accepted that my sync program has failed but i am left wondering what to do different. I thought the use of gnrh can start estrus cycles in anestrus cows? Shouldnt SOME or a FEW come into heat? Should I consider the use of CIDRs in the future? I'm at a loss for words.

[novatech]

My mistake, I meant to type clean-up ai and not TAI. But your comment is very interesting dun. about no heat at 60 hours.

If this is clean up and they are anestrus maybe they were bred.
If they are Brahman don't believe anything you read.
You may find something here; http://www.vetmed.lsu.edu/eiltslotus/th ... estrus.htm

[bpwagner115]

Ok so I posted this last summer and felt totally lost and pretty pathetic. Now that we are about 1/2 done calving I have noticed something very interesting about these 2nd calvers.

0-2 weeks of calving- 2 calves.
Last 5 days- 10 calves (including 4 yesterday alone)

SO this is my question. Targeted AI date was May 30th last summer. Based on 9 month pregnancy, these last 10 cows who just calved were bread right around the 1st week in July. Almost exactly a month after synchronization attempt. Does the possibility exist that those that came into heat had a silent heat thus the reason for no observed heats?? It seems very odd that this group would calve in such a tight window natural service. That is 33% in 5 days.

If you can't tell I am really looking for some encouragement that my synchronization attempt was not a complete and utter (no pun intended) failure.

[Lucky_P]

bpw,
For most folks - myself included - first-calf heifers are the hardest to get bred back. They're nursing a calf, still growing, and you're expecting them to 'clean up' and cycle back into heat. That's often a lot to ask. I never even think about attempting to start synching any of my spring-calving first-calf heifers prior to 60 days post calving - yes, I've had some back in heat in 30 days post-calving, but most don't. Even at 60 days, some are not ready.
Previous synch failures on groups of first-calvers -and yearlings - proves to me that if they're not already cycling, a synch protocol may well be a flop.

So...my first question to you is: Had you seen these any of these heifers in heat before you synched them?
GnRH will not 'make' an anestrus cow cycle - it just causes ovulation of any maturing oocytes(eggs), promotes formation of a corpus luteum, and starts a new wave of oocyte/follicle maturation.

If you're going to breed on observed heats, you might want to also work a late-night observation into the mix - a lot of mine come in sometime between 10pm and 6am; you might miss 'standing' if you don't check 'em at night. 'course, if you're doing TAI, it doesn't matter.

[Anguscattle]

Yes, GnRH doesnt force a cow into estrus, or estrous for that matter. Each hormone in the cow acts like a trigger to another hormone. GnRH for instance only triggers the release of FSH. FSH (Follicle Stimulating Hormone) is what stimulates new follicles to produce oocytes. But I must say, GnRH really has nothing to do with the formation of a corpus luteum. A CL is only formed AFTER estrous (heat/standing heat) and ovulation. Then its Progesterone that maintains it.

I am curious though... Did you simply give PG or to be technical PGf2alpha, then heat detect?
Or did you give GnRH, wait 7 Days then PG, then heat detect?

If you gave the GnRH, and you may know this, but it is important to start heat detection 2 days before the PG shot on the 7th day. This is because it is very common to have 5-20% of cattle come into heat without the PG shot, on the 5th day.

I do have to agree that on first calf heifers I would give them a little more time to recover before attempting to re-breed, and they usually are a little tougher to get bred with AI.
However, that doesnt mean not to try. I strongly encourage you to keep trying. There will always be some growing pains when you first start trying to AI cattle. Most people go to these schools, go home, hit a rough spot kinda like you have, then give up. Persistence will absolutely pay off! With every year that passes you will get better and have much better efficiency.

And you mentioned CIDR's.... I would strongly recommend them. Although costly, they are well worth it. PG only works on cows that are in a certain part of their cycle, (I wont be too technical here unless you'd like me to explain) and therefore you will most likely always have a few not come into heat. CIDR's simply "arrest" all of these cattle at the proper of their cycle so they are able to respond to PG. So theoretically you should have 100% heat. Of course we dont live in a perfect world and it doesnt always happen that way. But the do increase the results.

And I have to disagree with the night heat detection. Yes, often cattle do come into heat at night. Seen it hundreds of times.. But you said you were using patches. Therefore you have no need to check them then. Thats why you bought the patches! But if that would make you feel like you did all you could, then go for it! Personally, I feel like its a waste of time.
Once again, keep trying! You'll get it all going your way soon enough!

PS.. I didnt mean to offend anyone with opposing opinions. I was only stating mine from my own experience and education. I would like to hear opposing opinions on the matter though. Thats how Ive learned what I have. By taking others opinions and trying them and finding what works best for me. Thanks!

[bpwagner115]

Thanks for the encouragement. I understand more that the GNRH will not jumpstart them. I did give them GNRH then heat detected for the 2 days before the PG and then heat detected after and had NOTHING. Even went so far as to put a feedlot steer out to pasture with them to make sure I wasn't missing out on something. No scratches on Estrotects at all and we saw nothing in many hours of watching. It was pretty discouraging. Then I had to listen to the neightbors who sell seedstock tell me the best way is to buy a good bull and "let him do his job" and that really had me thinking i was wasting my time. Anyway, its almost to the point i am being stubborn and refuse to quit until i get it. I hope a year from now I'm posting pictures of our first A.I. sire calf!

[pdfangus]

MY QUICK RESPONSE TO SYNCHRONY IS THAT AN AWFUL LOT OF SYNCHRONZED ANIMALS SIMPLY DO NOT SHOW HEAT.

i HAVE BEEN DOING IT LONG ENOUGH THAT i NO LONGER WORRY MUCH ABOUT IT.

IN THE EARLY YEARS OF SYNCHRONY I ONLY BRED ON OBSERVED STANDING HEAT.

i HAVE RESYNCED ANIMALS THAT DID NOT SHOW HEAT THE FIRST TIME AND STILL NOT SEEN HEAT BUT GOTTEN SEVENTY PERCENT AND BETTER CONCEPTIONS ON TIMED AI.

[bpwagner115]

pdfangus-

I guess that is really my original reason for re-posting....is it possible that these animals (some atleast) were synched for breeding and didn't show heat on the 30th of May. Then when they cycled again the next time, they were all cycling around the same time and the bulls cleaned them up. That would explain the large number of calves in the relatively short amount of time.

[dun]

pdfangus-

I guess that is really my original reason for re-posting....is it possible that these animals (some atleast) were synched for breeding and didn't show heat on the 30th of May. Then when they cycled again the next time, they were all cycling around the same time and the bulls cleaned them up. That would explain the large number of calves in the relatively short amount of time.

It does happen that way. Makes the bulls really happy for a couple of days then disappointed from then on

[Stocker Steve]

MY QUICK RESPONSE TO SYNCHRONY IS THAT AN AWFUL LOT OF SYNCHRONZED ANIMALS SIMPLY DO NOT SHOW HEAT.

i HAVE BEEN DOING IT LONG ENOUGH THAT i NO LONGER WORRY MUCH ABOUT IT.

IN THE EARLY YEARS OF SYNCHRONY I ONLY BRED ON OBSERVED STANDING HEAT.

i HAVE RESYNCED ANIMALS THAT DID NOT SHOW HEAT THE FIRST TIME AND STILL NOT SEEN HEAT BUT GOTTEN SEVENTY PERCENT AND BETTER CONCEPTIONS ON TIMED AI.

What percent do not show standing heat with a patch but still are cycling?