shipped today update with weights

[Susie David]

Aaron...you hit the magic number pretty well, I like to buy those heavies from time-to-time especially in late winter after they have put on extra pounds eating the other fella's hay. Looks like the seasonal price drop is early this year, will be interesting to see who is selling and who is holding.
My logic may be flawed but the way I see it is that the culls are sold early/mid fall and the animals that are brought to the sale later in winter are the ones that were held back to be replacements or to see how they develop and are sold when feed resources are running thin.
Looking to buy some bred cows and a few heavy steers and probably won't go to the sale for another month.
Dave Mc

[hillsdown]

Wrong my heavies were '09 calves with ZERO creep, and in a drought.

Age verifying here is mandatory now..Every buyer knows exactly when they were born and that is why I get top dollar. So for those of you that think you should get the same price as my heavies ,,so sorry but not gonna happen...

RR you did well in the market with all that has been happening.

[SRBeef]

...The magic figure for yearlings is $800. Basically, no matter what happens, a backgrounder can count on $800 for yearlings sold in the spring, whether they are 680 or 1100 lbs. So ideally, as a backgrounder, I want calves that will hit the 700 to 750 lb mark at a year of age. Anymore weight and I am giving away free weight to my buyers. So if you have 700 lb calves and I pay a $1/lb. and it costs me $100 to winter them, where is my cut? They will sell around the 900-950 lb. mark for $800 cleared and I am sunk. I don't buy calves that are 600 lbs. or over. Light calves are hot for backgrounders and a little bit of a premium is paid by competition alone. Nothing I crave more than a package of whiteface calves in the 400-475 lb range. I want to make at least $200 on the calves I buy and sell as yearlings. I also want green, framey calves. No butter balls. Leave the creep feed at the store, because I'm not paying a premium. Also vaccinate. Nothing fancy. Killed vaccines are fine. I am going to re-vaccinate anyways. Age verifying is worth an extra couple cents in my book.

The local cattle association is starting to do vaccination protocol sales. Calves and yearlings in the program follow Pfizer's live vaccine Gold protocol. My calculations put the cost of drugs from conception to sale at over $10.00 per head. I bought 2 of the calves from this protocol and while they are good calves, they got heavily discounted for being over 550 lbs. (573) and I picked them up at .84/lb. It all comes down to weight. Meanwhile 350 lb calves under the same protocol were bringing $1.35 /lb.

One of my normal yearling grasser buyers bought a package of 7 steers at the local sale this spring. Weight was 715 and he paid $1.1150. I knew he was going to have a real hard time breaking even on those steers. He sold them Oct 3 and lost $1 on each one, having put 315 pounds on them.

Aaron, as a beginner and cow-calf guy I think you are saying something very important and useful but not sure I understand you correctly.

You say above that you get $800 for yearlings in the spring "no matter what they weigh"and therefore you want to buy calves that will "hit the 700 or 750 lb mark at a year of age"

I can see the logic of that given the "$800 no matter what" market you are selling into, but my goodness! Something does not compute here! Checking my weight records, so far my steers typically have a 205 day weaning wt around 650 lb and a yearling weight of 850-875 lb.

You mention BWF and I think you are also a Hereford guy. Isn't a BWF or Hereford steer that only weighs 700 or 750 as a true 365 day yearling either underfed or a runt?

Why are we working to breed good growth and milk for 600-650 lb 205 day WW if we are going to get penalized for calves that are sold over 475 lb ? And I am talking about grass only here, no creep.

I'm not doubting what you say, just amazed in that it doesn't make much sense to me. And I bet to HD.

So in order to sell you a 475 lb calf I have to rip them off of the cow at about 130-140 days and sell then to you in August at $1.26 ( x 475lb = your $600 which leaves you your $200 per $800 calf)? But even if I do that and assuming you feed them properly aren't they still going to end up near 900 at 365 days/yearling? The only way I can see you can hold them to 700-750 at a year is if you don't feed them very much, which on second thought, is maybe the backgrounder's goal...

Plan A: So if I sell you a 475 lb/135 day old calf in August for $1.26 that gives me $600 per calf. Which now that I think of it is the same as selling a 600 lb 205 day calf at $1 which is way above the US market this week. Hmmmm.

I just don't like the idea of weaning calves regularly at 135 days and selling them but maybe it makes economic sense. Either that or I have to take them all the way up to 1150 lb (Plan B) and sell them at .80 for $920 at 15 months/450 days? So I get $320 ($920 - your $600) for feeding them an additional 315 days (450-135 days) or about $1 per day gross income...or about breakeven? So really I make nothing (at this "current" price structure) for keeping him around for another 315 days so I might as well sell him to you at 135 days?.... (thinking out loud)

I don't really like either of these alternatives but maybe I am starting to see what you are talking about? Please correct me if I am missing something.... Maybe I need a plan C?

Thank you for the above post - please check my math and logic.

Jim

edit: So maybe my plan C should be to sell 750 lb yearlings in March for $800? This gives me $200 more than selling them to you for carrying them another 230 days? That is less than $1/day but at least I don't need finishing rations and can do it on grass... but still maybe breakeven or close to it. Not an obvious profit? And I'd probably need to restrict feed in a feedlot to hold them down to 750 lb...which is not my thing.

Or maybe Plan D: none of the above???

[Alberta farmer]

I think Aaron pretty well has the right numbers for yearlings going on grass? The buyers want a steer coming in off grass in that 900 to 950 lb. range around Sept. 1. A 700 to 750 lean and mean steer is just what the doctor ordered in the spring. British cattle fit this market very well, not so much continentals.
There is a big difference between a calf born in January and one born in May come October? I guess a lot of it comes down to whether you enjoy calving in the winter compared to calving on grass. Personally I'm not too keen on hauling my butt out of bed at 2 AM when its forty below to check cows but then maybe thats just me...I did it for too many years to ever go back to that!
I think calving in winter makes a bit more money...if you are selling calves...maybe about the same if you background the younger calves for a spring sale? The trick is keeping the backgrounding costs low. A calf doesn't need grain for backgrounding, especially a British calf. No one wants an overfed yearling.

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

The difference is ---- a GOOD growthy milk/grass raised calf does NOT NEED to be backgrounded. They don't need to be and SHOULDN'T be backgrounded. The 650# - 750#, 205 day wt, steers should be put right on a feedlot. This industry is wasting money "holding" growthy calves in a background program.
As far as I'm concerned, background programs are for crappie calves, or really early weaned calves.

My buyer pays us $1/lb, off our scales. Calves have been completely preconditioned, wormed 3 times, 3 sets of shots, started on grain. Around 8.5 months of age, averaging about 800-850#. He loves them, says he makes good money every year on them. He sells freezer beef & sells direct to the packing plant. (gets CAB premiums on many - all PB Simmental). Buys our calves sight unseen.

[Aaron]

Aaron I wasn't talking per pound I was talking actually dollars per animal. Why do people think their 400 pound animal should get the same as my 675lb boys in Sept. at 1.1425 lb which equates to 771.19 per head.. How do you figure that a 400 lb steer should get that ,and you the backgrounder make a profit.. If that is the case I will ween at 4-5 months ,,,,,saves me alot of money.......

You need to rethink what you do.......

Again, it's all about competition. Six order buyers come into the auction looking for low 6-weight steers. All have been told that they spend no more than $600 a head (i.e. less than $1/lb.) There is 20 local backgrounders in the crowd that only know that they need another 20 calves each (350 to 450 lbs) to fill their lots. What is going to happen? The orders on the big steers will quit at .93 and the small calves will go 1.20-1.40. Order buyers don't care if the don't get what they want, another auction tomorrow. Backgrounders are local and need to get calves that day if they are going to get any at all.

[Aaron]

...The magic figure for yearlings is $800. Basically, no matter what happens, a backgrounder can count on $800 for yearlings sold in the spring, whether they are 680 or 1100 lbs. So ideally, as a backgrounder, I want calves that will hit the 700 to 750 lb mark at a year of age. Anymore weight and I am giving away free weight to my buyers. So if you have 700 lb calves and I pay a $1/lb. and it costs me $100 to winter them, where is my cut? They will sell around the 900-950 lb. mark for $800 cleared and I am sunk. I don't buy calves that are 600 lbs. or over. Light calves are hot for backgrounders and a little bit of a premium is paid by competition alone. Nothing I crave more than a package of whiteface calves in the 400-475 lb range. I want to make at least $200 on the calves I buy and sell as yearlings. I also want green, framey calves. No butter balls. Leave the creep feed at the store, because I'm not paying a premium. Also vaccinate. Nothing fancy. Killed vaccines are fine. I am going to re-vaccinate anyways. Age verifying is worth an extra couple cents in my book.

The local cattle association is starting to do vaccination protocol sales. Calves and yearlings in the program follow Pfizer's live vaccine Gold protocol. My calculations put the cost of drugs from conception to sale at over $10.00 per head. I bought 2 of the calves from this protocol and while they are good calves, they got heavily discounted for being over 550 lbs. (573) and I picked them up at .84/lb. It all comes down to weight. Meanwhile 350 lb calves under the same protocol were bringing $1.35 /lb.

One of my normal yearling grasser buyers bought a package of 7 steers at the local sale this spring. Weight was 715 and he paid $1.1150. I knew he was going to have a real hard time breaking even on those steers. He sold them Oct 3 and lost $1 on each one, having put 315 pounds on them.

Aaron, as a beginner and cow-calf guy I think you are saying something very important and useful but not sure I understand you correctly.

You say above that you get $800 for yearlings in the spring "no matter what they weigh"and therefore you want to buy calves that will "hit the 700 or 750 lb mark at a year of age"

I can see the logic of that given the "$800 no matter what" market you are selling into, but my goodness! Something does not compute here! Checking my weight records, so far my steers typically have a 205 day weaning wt around 650 lb and a yearling weight of 850-875 lb. Then that means you should not sell a single calf, feed them light through winter and sell with the expectation to maximize profit on the smaller ones and lose on the bigger ones.

You mention BWF and I think you are also a Hereford guy. Isn't a BWF or Hereford steer that only weighs 700 or 750 as a true 365 day yearling either underfed or a runt? Don't think I said BWF. Whiteface steers. Should have said RWF steers specifically. Don't want black cattle. A yearling Hereford steer at 700-715 lbs. is called a 'green steer'. No significant amount of flesh on the animal but a lot of frame. That is what grasser buyers want. They aim for a 250 to 300 lb. gain on grass from May to October, so the frame has to be on the animal when they buy it.

Why are we working to breed good growth and milk for 600-650 lb 205 day WW if we are going to get penalized for calves that are sold over 475 lb ? And I am talking about grass only here, no creep. This is where the purebred world doesn't jive with the commercial world. If you want to be in the purebred game and raise big calves to sell, don't sell stocker calves. Background them through the winter and minimize your losses. Commercial producers don't care if they have big calves. A big bunch of lightweights in the ring will outsell a good bunch of 5 weights. Most of my own calves are in the 550 lb. range for a 205 day weight around 600. I know the loss I would take if I sold them as calves, so I have to work out a ration that will only get them to the 750 lb mark and no more. You can't feed backgrounders like you would feed a bull or heifer calf show prospect, you would lose your shirt.

I'm not doubting what you say, just amazed in that it doesn't make much sense to me. And I bet to HD. No, it doesn't seem like it. But go buy a 1/2 dozen feeders this fall at different weights, 4, 5, & 6...all for a similar price per pound, and then see which one makes the most money.

So in order to sell you a 475 lb calf I have to rip them off of the cow at about 130-140 days and sell then to you in August at $1.26 ( x 475lb = your $600 which leaves you your $200 per $800 calf)? But even if I do that and assuming you feed them properly aren't they still going to end up near 900 at 365 days/yearling? The only way I can see you can hold them to 700-750 at a year is if you don't feed them very much, which on second thought, is maybe the backgrounder's goal... $1.26 is a bit high. More like $1.10. Remember I want about $200 profit, not $100 after expenses. Basically you can say I want to spend $500 for a calf, no matter the weight up to 600 lbs. So 300 lbs @ 1.43 or 400 lbs @ 1.25 or 500 lbs @ 1.00 or 575 at .87 .

Plan A: So if I sell you a 475 lb/135 day old calf in August for $1.26 that gives me $600 per calf. Which now that I think of it is the same as selling a 600 lb 205 day calf at $1 which is way above the US market this week. Hmmmm. Again, don't plan for $600 from a small backgrounder. Some big backgrounders 100+ calves, might go there. But most are even more greedy than the small guys.

I just don't like the idea of weaning calves regularly at 135 days and selling them but maybe it makes economic sense. Either that or I have to take them all the way up to 1150 lb (Plan B) and sell them at .80 for $920 at 15 months/450 days? So I get $320 ($920 - your $600) for feeding them an additional 315 days (450-135 days) or about $1 per day gross income...or about breakeven? So really I make nothing (at this "current" price structure) for keeping him around for another 315 days so I might as well sell him to you at 135 days?.... (thinking out loud) If you can get over $900 US for a 1150 lber, your doing good. Like I said in an earlier post. One of my yearling buyers sold their 1029 lb yearlings for .76/lb. CDN.

I don't really like either of these alternatives but maybe I am starting to see what you are talking about? Please correct me if I am missing something.... Maybe I need a plan C?

Thank you for the above post - please check my math and logic.

Jim

edit: So maybe my plan C should be to sell 750 lb yearlings in March for $800? This gives me $200 more than selling them to you for carrying them another 230 days? That is less than $1/day but at least I don't need finishing rations and can do it on grass... but still maybe breakeven or close to it. Not an obvious profit? And I'd probably need to restrict feed in a feedlot to hold them down to 750 lb...which is not my thing. 800 lbs max. If you have 600 lb calves right now, feed free choice hay and a pound of rolled oats per head per day. You should hit the 800 lb mark with lots of frame and little fat. Sell whenever your hottest yearling market is in the spring. March for us is too early. Late April is best.

Or maybe Plan D: none of the above??? It's good to shake things up a bit and shake a few more coins out of the market. You may waste time, but you shouldn't lose any money, your first year doing it.

[SRBeef]

Very interesting and educational for a beginner like me. Thanks for the three (now four) posts above. Different ways of looking at things.

Jeanne, that is sort of what I was coming to also. Aaron also, thank you.

Jim

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

In this day and age, steers should be finished at 12-16 months of age, weighing 1200-1300#. Only the DINKS & RUNTS should be backgrounded.
If time is money - and I think it is in every facet of life - you are wasting a lot of money "backgrounding & grass feeding" feedot calves.
My "large framed" steers on the Cornell Univ feedout program finished at 1358# - 1459# live wt, 851# - 913# HCW (no discount until over 950#), 4 went choice, 1 went SE+, Yield Grade 1.3 - 2.1 and 1 going 2.6, brought $1.38 - $1.42, harvested 3 on 5-13-09 and 2 on 6-25-09 (all late Feb & March born calves). The lowest price was on the poorest YG steer - fed too long.
I sell my heaviest (oldest) calves to a feedlot (the majority of our steers), and retain ownership on the lighter/younger ones (usually 5-6 head) (Cornell feedout program). They weighed 639# - 746# at delivery first of Nov.
They feed out Conventional & Natural. Mine were all conv. The highest price paid for Natural was $1.60, and the highest for Conv was $1.48
The Conv. in the 600# range averaged about $1.35
so - 650# x 1.35 = $877.50
mine avg: 884# x $1.41 = $1246.44
This program calculates everything and anything - the NET PROFIT took into consideration all costs involved (including what they were worth at delivery time). Our steers as a group and/or as individuals, have been the HIGHEST PROFIT out of over 200 head consistantly the past 5 years.
Maybe that's why the feedlot we sell to buys all our steers "sight unseen" each year. They make him $$$$.

[Aaron]

Selling on the rail/retaining ownership is not an option for our area. The nearest plants to accept fat cattle would be a 20-24 hour drive in either direction. The only option would be to send them to backgrounding/finishing lots that are about the same distance from here. I am not sure what Jeanne labels as backgrounding. I refer to it as the time spent between weaning and yearling. After that, cattle should be in a finishing lot or on grass and then a finishing lot. From previous experience our cattle are ready to slaughter at 16 months.

Selling direct to the feedlot or retained ownership may work for some. However, I like to sell light yearlings to grasser buyers as they compete in bidding with order buyers to net a higher price. If our yearlings were heavier, we would cut out the grasser buyers and only have order buyers, which buy at the cheapest price possible. An example, our 7 weight spring yearling steers sold for $1.1150 this spring. Compared to steers at 850/900 lbs, we got between 15 and 20 cents more for them, simply because of the competition between order and grasser buyers. Most calve in April/May in this area now, and the resulting lighter calves sold in October (compared to Jan/Feb/Mar calving) result in similar or greater gross payouts.

Most local herds have eliminated the big exotic cows with big calves as the cows consume too much premium hay to make it worthwhile. We've done it. Had one of the first traditional Simmental herds in the area in '74 and also used Char bulls on them. Big calves. Hit the scale at 800 to 900 lbs at 7 to 8 months of age. Can guarantee you we are money ahead running straightbred Hereford cows. Eat half the hay and don't require premium hay to survive the winter.

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Aaron, like I always try to recommend, you have to raise & market cattle that work best in YOUR area.
I, also, refer to backgrounding as weaning to long yearling. Essentially, we precondition for about 6 weeks (background???) then they go direct to the feedlot (retained and sold). To "hold" calves thru the winter on a "grow frame" type ration would be too costly and laborous for us. No thanks.
Guess we're lucky to have better options with out steers. Their sister siblings are what I breed for - steers/bulls are a quick cash ticket - but have been very profitable.
I breed every cow looking for the best "click" for a replacement female.

[Txwalt]

In this day and age, steers should be finished at 12-16 months of age, weighing 1200-1300#. Only the DINKS & RUNTS should be backgrounded.
If time is money - and I think it is in every facet of life - you are wasting a lot of money "backgrounding & grass feeding" feedot calves.

I don't think this is the case in Central, South and West Texas. Brahman influenced cattle are later maturing. They just grow slower. The stocking rates here are 20 to 25 acres a cow/calf pair. That means they are mostly eating native unfertilized grass. You simply can't turn a profit weeding and fertilizing 20 acres for one cow. Our cows have to work a little harder when they forage. The up side is we only have to hay them 2 or 3 months a year if there is no drought. This year I don't even want to think about how much hay we put out.

Walt

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Yes Walt, you are so right. I shouldn't use such broad statements. Your calves aren't necessarily DINKS or RUNTS, but they would be small & needing the backgrounding type program. But, that's what I was getting at (not very nicely, I must admit). Growthy, well nourished calves should be able to go right on a feedlot after preconditioning.