WHICH Barn Door?

[DOC HARRIS]

Frankie wrote:

Quote [Why do you insist that YOUR concept is common sense? And those of us who dare to disagree are idiots or cowards or scardy cats? I find that attitude insulting.]Quote

Frankie-

I have read and re-read my original post on this thread, and I am unable to find the words "idiots" or "cowards" or "scardy cats" ANYWHERE in the post! Are you sure that you are reading the same post, or are you slightly confused?

Try reading it - AGAIN! You might be able to get the subliminal substantive iteration of my post. I have no ax to grind with any producer who is eager to help himself and make a PROFIT in the cattle business. As I have mentioned before on this Forum, I think that the "BU$INE$$" of raising Beef Cattle, in it's entirety, is one of the MOST difficult occupations in existence - if it is performed correctly. In all of my businesses in my 83 years I have attempted to teach and help others in that particular business. I have been a Teacher in THREE of those businesses. If I have been able to be of assistance to someone else, that it my purpose. If not, at least I have tried. If you CHOOSE to be insulted from reading my post, that is YOUR problem.

But I am not going to engage in specious arguing, or nit-picking, or back biting! If you don't agree with - or dislike what am saying, read something else!

DOC HARRIS

[hillsdown]

[Northern Rancher]

We've fed at the same feedyard for a number of years-the first bunch of cattle finished 40 days sooner and 100 pounds heavier than they projected-an inch of width on a carcass is worth alot more than an inch of heighth. Weighing that air under their belly doesn't weigh up as much as you'd think. More moderate frame cattle make us money in the feedlot and their heifer mates will go out and make a cow.

[BRG]

We've fed at the same feedyard for a number of years-the first bunch of cattle finished 40 days sooner and 100 pounds heavier than they projected-an inch of width on a carcass is worth alot more than an inch of heighth. Weighing that air under their belly doesn't weigh up as much as you'd think. More moderate frame cattle make us money in the feedlot and their heifer mates will go out and make a cow.

I agree, but I think Doc and the others are talking about smaller cows in weight. I will take a 1400 lbs cow with some body, length and width any/every day over a 1000 lbs cow that is lacking in every department.

Plus most people don't feed their calves out, most don't have the space, lots don't understand the whole concept, and then nearly all just want the cash up front, and I don't blame them. So when they sell at the barn or off the cow, the calves with a decent frame, weight, and good muscling get the best prices like I stated in my first post. You can have both, a cow that does it on grass, while her calves are in demand.

[dun]

We've fed at the same feedyard for a number of years-the first bunch of cattle finished 40 days sooner and 100 pounds heavier than they projected-an inch of width on a carcass is worth alot more than an inch of heighth. Weighing that air under their belly doesn't weigh up as much as you'd think. More moderate frame cattle make us money in the feedlot and their heifer mates will go out and make a cow.

I agree, but I think Doc and the others are talking about smaller cows in weight. I will take a 1400 lbs cow with some body, length and width any/every day over a 1000 lbs cow that is lacking in every department.

Plus most people don't feed their calves out, most don't have the space, lots don't understand the whole concept, and then nearly all just want the cash up front, and I don't blame them. So when they sell at the barn or off the cow, the calves with a decent frame, weight, and good muscling get the best prices like I stated in my first post. You can have both, a cow that does it on grass, while her calves are in demand.

Yup and yup!

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

We've fed at the same feedyard for a number of years-the first bunch of cattle finished 40 days sooner and 100 pounds heavier than they projected-an inch of width on a carcass is worth alot more than an inch of heighth. Weighing that air under their belly doesn't weigh up as much as you'd think. More moderate frame cattle make us money in the feedlot and their heifer mates will go out and make a cow.

I agree, but I think Doc and the others are talking about smaller cows in weight. I will take a 1400 lbs cow with some body, length and width any/every day over a 1000 lbs cow that is lacking in every department.

Plus most people don't feed their calves out, most don't have the space, lots don't understand the whole concept, and then nearly all just want the cash up front, and I don't blame them. So when they sell at the barn or off the cow, the calves with a decent frame, weight, and good muscling get the best prices like I stated in my first post. You can have both, a cow that does it on grass, while her calves are in demand.

Yup and yup!

and I will also agree!!! MODERATE SIZE does not necessarily mean SMALL.
In our "neck of the woods", we refer to moderate size cows in the 12-1400# range. I have some in that range and some larger. Anyone that "knows" me, knows we make our biggest profits selling replacement females. But, half my calf crop is males and we don't sell very many bulls (castrate at least 90%). We place a portion of our steers on the Cornell Univ feedout program. We retain ownership. Our steers have been the HIGHEST PROFIT group (and/or individual) steers since we've been partcipating (out of several hundred head). The head of the program does not understand it, because the crossbred steers should out-perform our purebreds. Hmm, we must be doing something right with our "moderate to big" cows, that run on grass and hay alone..

Bottom line, it doesn't make any difference what size your cows are, IF you are making a NET profit. My steers net me AT LEAST $200 over the cow costs each year (fertilizer, feed (hay for cows & grain for weaned calves), meds, vet, labor paid, fencing, breeding, etc). I'll be satisfied with that kind of NET profit - from my STEERS.

So, Doc, let's not beat this into the ground. There is NO RIGHT SIZE COW for EVERYONE. We appreciate your wisdom, but you don't necessarily KNOW what's best for everyone in every area.

[DOC HARRIS]

At the risk of "beating this subject into the ground", I would direct your attention to just ONE of the thousands of articles pertaining to cow size, and the consequences of having a cow herd that is VERY LARGE (whatever that connotation may mean to anyone). Words mean things, and whether a brood cow is the "right" size for your operation is entirely up to you and your Accountant and Banker! A 1000# cow may be too small and a 2000# cow may be just right - or not. That is your decision to make - given whatever factors you wish to consider in the decision. The importance of CONSIDERING ALL of the cogent components and details in arriving at those decisions is critical for all of the right reasons. It is up to the individual to decide what those reasons may be.

At this point I will paraphrase Patrick Henry by saying, "Already the 'big cow advocates' are moving in from - wherever. As for me, Give Me Common Sense, or Forget the Entire Subject!"

This article is from the current CattleToday Front Page by Larry A. Redman, State Forage Specialist, Texas AgriLife Extension Service, College Station, Texas.

"Evaluate your stocking rate: Use of the appropriate stocking rate is the most critical aspect of livestock man- agement and one that generally does not cost at all! Cattle size has increased over the past 40 to 50 years and forage intake increases with body size. If prior ownership of a property pastured 100 head of cows, stocking at the same rate today would create a severely over-stocked situation simply due to the increase in cow size. Coupled with woody species encroachment over time, many properties simply cannot support their current level of stocking. To make matters worse, higher fuel and fertilizer prices are forcing some individuals to reduce or eliminate their fertilizer inputs on introduced forages, thus decreasing the carrying capacity of the property even more. Drought is another issue that significantly affects stocking rate and should be built into the stocking rate management plan. Producers should carefully, with the advice of stocking rate experts, determine what their appropriate stocking rate should be and make adjustments accordingly. Another tip, in many cases, less is more."

Case closed!

DOC HARRIS

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Hello Doc

At the risk of "beating this subject into the ground", I would direct your attention to just ONE of the thousands of articles pertaining to cow size, and the consequences of having a cow herd that is VERY LARGE (whatever that connotation may mean to anyone). Words mean things, and whether a brood cow is the "right" size for your operation is entirely up to you and your Accountant and Banker! A 1000# cow may be too small and a 2000# cow may be just right - or not. That is your decision to make - given whatever factors you wish to consider in the decision. The importance of CONSIDERING ALL of the cogent components and details in arriving at those decisions is critical for all of the right reasons. It is up to the individual to decide what those reasons may be.

You are exactly right.

No one (I think) is arguing that bigger cows eat more than smaller ones - with smaller cattle, you can pasture more head than larger. But, what is too big & what is too small depends on the area and management of the herd. Even the Univ out here says we are losing money on SMALL frame size cows in our area, due to the lush grasses & DISCOUNTS "small" frame feeders get at the market.
You always say, we in the BUI$NE$$ to make $$$ - so bottom line is what makes EACH producer the most $$$$ in their own operation.

[dun]

Even the Univ out here says we are losing money on SMALL frame size cows in our area, due to the lush grasses & DISCOUNTS "small" frame feeders get at the market.
You always say, we in the BUI$NE$$ to make $$$ - so bottom line is what makes EACH producer the most $$$$ in their own operation.

Now I'm disillusioned! I thought sure that "one size fits all" was the factual truth

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

"Might be" in clothes - not cattle!

[novatech]

Can one breed for cows that are 1200 lbs. and use a bull designed to produce terminal calves more in tune with what the market desires?

[ANAZAZI]

A cow is big enough if her male offspring will be fed out to a size that the market desires, before the next years steers needs the place in the feedlot.
If the cow is much bigger and her offspring finish faster; this means there could have been room for more cows in the pasture.

[Brandonm22]

A cow is big enough if her male offspring will be fed out to a size that the market desires, before the next years steers needs the place in the feedlot.
If the cow is much bigger and her offspring finish faster; this means there could have been room for more cows in the pasture.

The problem with smallish cows is not so much the steers; but rather the heifers. A thousand pound cow has steers calves that finish out at 1000 pounds and dresses out at an acceptable 630 lb carcass. Her heifer calves are going too finish 100 - 150 lbs lighter and typically have a lot of waste fat. Most heifers become feeder calves NOT replacements.

[RD-Sam]

Can one breed for cows that are 1200 lbs. and use a bull designed to produce terminal calves more in tune with what the market desires?

That makes a whole lot more sense than some stuff posted in this thread.

[Willow Springs]

I agree, but I think Doc and the others are talking about smaller cows in weight. I will take a 1400 lbs cow with some body, length and width any/every day over a 1000 lbs cow that is lacking in every department.

Plus most people don't feed their calves out, most don't have the space, lots don't understand the whole concept, and then nearly all just want the cash up front, and I don't blame them. So when they sell at the barn or off the cow, the calves with a decent frame, weight, and good muscling get the best prices like I stated in my first post. You can have both, a cow that does it on grass, while her calves are in demand.

If you start frame scoring, weighing and body condition scoring you will find that the only way to decrease cow weight (and keep body mass) is by decreasing frame score. A couple years ago we did it and found that cows of a specific frame size, adjusted to a specific BCS were all very similar for body weight. My 5-6 frame Angus cows were 1450-1550 lbs with a BCS of 5.5 (3 Canada). That is bigger than where I want to be. My smallest was 4.5 and she was about 1350. I realized that to get the elusive 1200 lb cow that I needed a 3-4 frame cow if I wanted her to be a good thick made cow.

No one (I think) is arguing that bigger cows eat more than smaller ones - with smaller cattle, you can pasture more head than larger. But, what is too big & what is too small depends on the area and management of the herd. Even the Univ out here says we are losing money on SMALL frame size cows in our area, due to the lush grasses & DISCOUNTS "small" frame feeders get at the market.

What is too big or too small depends on how much you want to change the environment for your cattle. I often read about small framed feeders being discounted on this site; is this based on actual truth or coffee shop talk or just pure BS? How do you tell a small framed feeder from an animal that is simply a month or two younger? The simple truth is as you have put it; you can feed more smaller cows, rasing more pounds of calf, worth more per pound on the same acreage than you can larger cows. It doesn't matter what the environment is, this doesn't change. What does change is whether you can get away with raising larger cows or not; in our area (and yours by the sound of it) we can becasue of more yield and nutrition in our grass; doesn't mean it is the right thing to do; we should just run even more small cows.

Bottom line, it doesn't make any difference what size your cows are, IF you are making a NET profit. My steers net me AT LEAST $200 over the cow costs each year (fertilizer, feed (hay for cows & grain for weaned calves), meds, vet, labor paid, fencing, breeding, etc). I'll be satisfied with that kind of NET profit - from my STEERS.

Well I guess that you should be in the feeding business then because they are claiming they have been losing $100-200 per head.