same calf still subject of pneumonia

[dgott]

I have been to the vet two days and was told both times it would not be a good idea to give her a live virus. He said she was to weak to fight the vac. I am sure you all know what you are talking about but at the same time the person selling it to me says I should not use it now. Larry he also said the seriod would cause her to much stress.

Her fever is still up and down and she is still on the sulphr med. I went ahead and gave her the nu-flor today, the vet said it would be ok to try at this point. This am she took 1/4 of a bottle herself and I drenched her with the rest. She is up and eating hay. I also have her ADE. Tell me more about building the immune system please, I have much to learn.

[angie]

I sure feel your frustration with this situation. You have invested more time and money than others on here would have, and you are not seeing the improvement that you (and frankly me too) are expecting. I thought by now your calf would be better or dead. I don't give vaccines to sick calves either for the reason your vet stated ~ however, I have lost more calves than Larry, and he has raised more calves than my vet has. At this point I don't really see what you have to lose. I don't really see how you can use both nuflor and vaccine, as the nuflor cancels out the vaccine.

You say that your vet reports the steriods would be too hard on her and he is right ~ but you have to balance and figure the lesser of 2 evils, and I think the steriod is a lesser stress on her than the fever. I am not familiar with the lung meds that hillsdown recommended, but I would look into that if I were you as well. Continue giving her the vitamins orally, and make sure that for as long as she is on antibiotics you are keeping on with the probiotics. I am starting to feel real sorry for the 2 of you. I have had calves before like this that hang on day after day where their condition is up and down like this and it gets to the point that even though I will fight as long as they will ~ I wish they would just die and have it over with.

Larry can you explain how giving the vaccine helps? It seems to me it would stress an already stressed immune system. I am not doubting you, I just want to learn too.

[dgott]

I just gave the Nuflor today so it will be in her system for 4 days I think. Angie you are right it would have been easier if she had of died Sun when her temp was 107 and we gave the Micotil. I didnt know the reason she had flakey ears until after I had her two weeks but it was due to high fevers. Would you believe her ears look much better and she is not drooling. I also will fight as long as she does, but some days are tough.

[angie]

Something to keep in mind ~ as a result of this, she will probably never be a "good do-er" in comparison with her herd mates. And the summer heat will be hard on her on account of the damage done to her lungs so you will need to be aware of that. She may need to be allowed in a shelter during the heat of the day.

I wish you luck ~ at least thats free (luck)!

[larryshoat]

You say that your vet reports the steriods would be too hard on her and he is right ~ but you have to balance and figure the lesser of 2 evils, and I think the steriod is a lesser stress on her than the fever.

Larry can you explain how giving the vaccine helps? It seems to me it would stress an already stressed immune system. I am not doubting you, I just want to learn too.

angie I think your statement in red explains the dilema with the dex, perfectly, when I need immediate relief from symptoms there is nothing else that works as well .

My recomendation of MLV for treatment of BRD in cattle is easily the most controversial thing that I have ever done, it always brings me grief, but I believe in it so I continue saying it .
1. Modern vaccines are so much better than what we used, even 10 years ago .
2. MLV produces interferon to help the calf fight the disease . There is some stress involved, but I don't ever recall a calf that I thought died from a dose of Bovi-Shield 5 . If we can't get the immune system of the calf to take over we will never win . In the case of this calf he has had the very best antibiotics we have with little result, why ?, all too often I think we ask, what's wrong with the medicine ? when we should be asking, what's wrong with the calf ? I think it always leads us back to the immune system of the calf . I always say that when give calves a dose of MLV that we're reminding his immune system of what we want it to do .
3. I discovered that this works by giving left over doses of vaccine to the sorted out calves that usually ended up dying, we found that they got better, really just by accident and as time went on I became bolder and bolder with my use of MLV . I always treat sick calves with Bovi-Shiel 5 Gold .

I don't expect anybody to go against their vet, but I find in private conversations with cattle vets, off the record, that they are not as opposed to the idea of using MLV for treatment as we might think .
I think that this is a topic we will be discussing for a very long time .

Larry

[dgott]

Larry, like I said I gave nuflor today and tonight her temp is 105 but she was up eating hay when I went in to tube her. She drank almost 3/4 of a bottle from a bucket, so I will go back and give her some nutri drench and 2 asprin in a drench tool I use on my goats. I will not tube her tonight. How soon can I give the Bovi Shield 5 Gold shot? Should I go with the steriod you mentioned? Thanks for your help.

[larryshoat]

Larry, like I said I gave nuflor today and tonight her temp is 105 but she was up eating hay when I went in to tube her. She drank almost 3/4 of a bottle from a bucket, so I will go back and give her some nutri drench and 2 asprin in a drench tool I use on my goats. I will not tube her tonight. How soon can I give the Bovi Shield 5 Gold shot? Should I go with the steriod you mentioned? Thanks for your help.

I would give the Bovi-Shield 5 right away, I think I would add Tylan 200 to go along with the Nuflor and I would use the dexamethasone too for three days . It's an uphill battle, but I admire your tenacity .

Larry

[dgott]

I mentioned she drank over half a bottle of milk from a bucket. What is the minimal amount of fluid you would let her take on her own before you tube her the rest?

[larryshoat]

I mentioned she drank over half a bottle of milk from a bucket. What is the minimal amount of fluid you would let her take on her own before you tube her the rest?

I think I would stop with the tube as long as she is still drinking some .I think if you can get the temp down her appetite will improve .
I will use a tube a time or two, but after that I use a bottle with a cut off nipple and make them swallow the milk .

Larry

[angie]

I think I would stop with the tube as long as she is still drinking some .I think if you can get the temp down her appetite will improve .
I will use a tube a time or two, but after that I use a bottle with a cut off nipple and make them swallow the milk.
Larry

Agree with this on tubing 100%, and I think a lot of us on here admire your tenacity (as well as your calfs!). I am for sure cheering for you guys.

Thank you for explaining about the vaccine Larry. What you say makes sense, and I respect your experience.

[dgott]

This am her temp is 103 she drank half of a bottle from a bucket. I have no problem with a bottle and the cut nipple but even when she has tried to drink from a bottle she gets choked and coughs. Will it not go into her lungs causing more of a problem?

Thanks for your help I have only raised 6 calves this is #7 she is a fighter. This is only a hobby for me, not a proffit. John and I also have 4 Foster Children. They love the baby calves and goats. Yes everyone here has a name.

[larryshoat]

This am her temp is 103 she drank half of a bottle from a bucket. I have no problem with a bottle and the cut nipple but even when she has tried to drink from a bottle she gets choked and coughs. Will it not go into her lungs causing more of a problem?

Thanks for your help I have only raised 6 calves this is #7 she is a fighter. This is only a hobby for me, not a proffit. John and I also have 4 Foster Children. They love the baby calves and goats. Yes everyone here has a name.

That's a possibility, if she has too much trouble, then just let her drink from the bucket .

Larry

[dgott]

I gave her all three things, Tylan 200, Bovi-Shield 5 Gold, and Dexamethasone. Her temp is 102 just now. How long will the Bovi-Shield be good for? Can I use it in 14 days if she makes it? They also said the Tylan 200 could be given again in 24 hours. Should I do that or just the one dose?

[larryshoat]

I gave her all three things, Tylan 200, Bovi-Shield 5 Gold, and Dexamethasone. Her temp is 102 just now. How long will the Bovi-Shield be good for? Can I use it in 14 days if she makes it? They also said the Tylan 200 could be given again in 24 hours. Should I do that or just the one dose?

Give the Tylan every 24 hrs. The Bovi-Shield can and should be repeated in 14 days .

Larry

[dgott]

Like I said I gave those shots before lunch, tonight her temp is still 102 but she drank her whole bucket of milk for the first time since last Sat. and appears more alert. Can it help that much this quick?