why do we feed supplement ?

Backgrounding & feeding questions.
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Re: why do we feed supplement ?

Post by callmefence » Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:13 am

Caustic Burno wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:59 am
Bright Raven wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:32 am
Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:26 am
Location - location. What's good for you is not good for me.
I posted a windy post about LOOKING AT MANURE - poof - it is gone. Anyway, someone already said it and I concur. You can tell if your winter grass has enough protein by looking at their manure. You can tell if it has food value, by watching their body condition (don't let heavy winter hair coat fool you!!)
Even if I had enough land to stockpile grass, my cows wouldn't be able to eat it because of our heavy snowfall and the fact that it "packs" so the cattle cannot forage thru it.
It is not just location. I suspect that Fence is using practices that involve planting species of grass that provides good standing forage if grazed in a timely manner. I don't even know where he lives in relationship to CB but he has often posted pictures of outstanding forage that he planted and grazes standing. You cannot argue with his logic that grazing it standing saves the expense of harvesting it, storing it and moving it around.
That winter pasture is not free, take 50 bucks an acre to plant rye grass in seed and fuel. You haven’t even factored in labor and maintenance. If you need fertilizer that price really went up and your still supplementing?
I prefer oats and I say your a little high on the ryegrass but I'll work with it.
So at 50 per acre it only has to produce a half ton to equal your 100 a ton 12 percent hay. :roll:
Oats will give grazing from mid November till May at times. Providing tons of forage. Plus I can graze them all winter , pull cattle first of March and get a hay crop off the same crop.
We got two bales per acre this year, thanks to good weather. I sold it to a crotchety old man with more cows than country.. :lol:

And as far as supplementing cheap hay with nothing else available. I don't think anything would be cheaper than the WCS I mentioned earlier.


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Re: why do we feed supplement ?

Post by callmefence » Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:17 am

Lucky wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:34 am
I make a trip several times a year through the country that Fence runs his cows on. I know nothing about running cows there but it does look like planting winter pasture would be a good deal there. Maybe supplement with range cubes if needed. Every time I drive through the area I wonder how many acres it takes to run a cow and how a man would get a hay meadow going. It’s very rocky country, really nice area though. It’s actually one of the places I would look to move to if I ever relocate.
We use the little pockets of deep soil we have here and there. And small irregular shaped fields are the norm. I'm blessed will a good bit of deep black soil on my homeplace, and a couple lease places
You should stop in sometime
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Re: why do we feed supplement ?

Post by Hardin Farms » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:43 am

Lucky wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:18 am
The easiest way to tell if cows needs a supplement is too look at their poop. Best thing about the poop study is that it works any time of year and in any conditions. Early spring might fool you but generally just look at the poop.
Would you mind elaborating on this a little? Im assuming poop shouldnt be thin, but shouldnt stack up? If you have a small herd and only a few have poop that is stacking, how do you handle that?

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Re: why do we feed supplement ?

Post by Farmgirl » Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:34 pm

Not Lucky but...google cow pieology. I have seen several articles on this in the past but don't see the best ones now. As for the variation in cow pies, maybe you have some "hogs" at the trough. Try to supplement where all have a chance at the trough, such as liquid feed or possibly sort off the offenders.

Good luck.

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Re: why do we feed supplement ?

Post by Caustic Burno » Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:27 pm

callmefence wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:13 am
Caustic Burno wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:59 am
Bright Raven wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:32 am


It is not just location. I suspect that Fence is using practices that involve planting species of grass that provides good standing forage if grazed in a timely manner. I don't even know where he lives in relationship to CB but he has often posted pictures of outstanding forage that he planted and grazes standing. You cannot argue with his logic that grazing it standing saves the expense of harvesting it, storing it and moving it around.
That winter pasture is not free, take 50 bucks an acre to plant rye grass in seed and fuel. You haven’t even factored in labor and maintenance. If you need fertilizer that price really went up and your still supplementing?
I prefer oats and I say your a little high on the ryegrass but I'll work with it.
So at 50 per acre it only has to produce a half ton to equal your 100 a ton 12 percent hay. :roll:
Oats will give grazing from mid November till May at times. Providing tons of forage. Plus I can graze them all winter , pull cattle first of March and get a hay crop off the same crop.
We got two bales per acre this year, thanks to good weather. I sold it to a crotchety old man with more cows than country.. :lol:

And as far as supplementing cheap hay with nothing else available. I don't think anything would be cheaper than the WCS I mentioned earlier.
Let’s see rye grass is 70 dollars a hundred and you haven’t even got in the truck to pick it up.
Decent stand of oats requires 50 pounds of N per acre that’s roughly 250 lbs of fertilizer per acre at 460 a ton.
Your at 57 bucks an acre on fertilizer and haven’t put the first seed on the ground. Secondly that fertilizer bill is going to bite again in the spring to replace all the nutrients pulled out by the oats. It’s real easy to :bs: yourself winter pasture is not cheap. It’s premium priced pasture that has to be replaced every winter, that hay field won’t leave you.
A half butted hay field will raise you 6 to 8 tons per acre over the summer.
I run sale-barn cattle.

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Re: why do we feed supplement ?

Post by callmefence » Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:48 pm

Caustic Burno wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:27 pm
callmefence wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:13 am
Caustic Burno wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:59 am


That winter pasture is not free, take 50 bucks an acre to plant rye grass in seed and fuel. You haven’t even factored in labor and maintenance. If you need fertilizer that price really went up and your still supplementing?
I prefer oats and I say your a little high on the ryegrass but I'll work with it.
So at 50 per acre it only has to produce a half ton to equal your 100 a ton 12 percent hay. :roll:
Oats will give grazing from mid November till May at times. Providing tons of forage. Plus I can graze them all winter , pull cattle first of March and get a hay crop off the same crop.
We got two bales per acre this year, thanks to good weather. I sold it to a crotchety old man with more cows than country.. :lol:

And as far as supplementing cheap hay with nothing else available. I don't think anything would be cheaper than the WCS I mentioned earlier.
Let’s see rye grass is 70 dollars a hundred and you haven’t even got in the truck to pick it up.
Decent stand of oats requires 50 pounds of N per acre that’s roughly 250 lbs of fertilizer per acre at 460 a ton.
Your at 57 bucks an acre on fertilizer and haven’t put the first seed on the ground. Secondly that fertilizer bill is going to bite again in the spring to replace all the nutrients pulled out by the oats. It’s real easy to :bs: yourself winter pasture is not cheap. It’s premium priced pasture that has to be replaced every winter, that hay field won’t leave you.
A half butted hay field will raise you 6 to 8 tons per acre over the summer.
How in the heck does it take 250 pounds of fertilizer to get 50 pounds of nitrogen...
100 pounds of urea is 46 pounds of nitrogen.

I guess that's why all that oats and wheat are drilled to run cattle every winter. And we plant haygrazer behind the oats. The oats in the photo above have received no fertilizer. They will in the spring. Their living off the fertilizer left from the haygrazer. You keep buying your hay a bale at a time from tsc and making fun of back forty cattle....at least I got a back forty
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Re: why do we feed supplement ?

Post by bball » Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:37 pm

rjbovine wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:24 pm
I agree I should have hay tested . Feeding the corn I'm ok with . I asking more about adding the 34% supplement to the corn . These are fall calving cows with calves on them . Also there isn't much pasture mostly dry lot. Keeping an eye on the poop is a good idea.Thanks rj
This Is TBs area of expertise. However, I will make an attempt to offer a simple understanding. Whole corn is roughly 9% protein. Approximately 65% of that is bypass protein, meaning the cow absorbs it in the small intestine and it is not broken down by the rumen microorganisms. The remaining 35% is used by the fauna in the rumen for their own growth and protein synthesis. Consequently, diets high in corn, in order to optimize the nutrition available from corn, require protein supplementation. Think of it like this, and this is extremely simplistic I know, but essentially the rumen microbes need protein to grow and synthesis additional proteins; so you are feeding the microbes protein so the cow can use the corn in the most ideal way possible. The microbes do the work to break down the corn and you have to feed the microbes if you want them to work.
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Re: why do we feed supplement ?

Post by Caustic Burno » Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:50 pm

callmefence wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:48 pm
Caustic Burno wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:27 pm
callmefence wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:13 am


I prefer oats and I say your a little high on the ryegrass but I'll work with it.
So at 50 per acre it only has to produce a half ton to equal your 100 a ton 12 percent hay. :roll:
Oats will give grazing from mid November till May at times. Providing tons of forage. Plus I can graze them all winter , pull cattle first of March and get a hay crop off the same crop.
We got two bales per acre this year, thanks to good weather. I sold it to a crotchety old man with more cows than country.. :lol:

And as far as supplementing cheap hay with nothing else available. I don't think anything would be cheaper than the WCS I mentioned earlier.
Let’s see rye grass is 70 dollars a hundred and you haven’t even got in the truck to pick it up.
Decent stand of oats requires 50 pounds of N per acre that’s roughly 250 lbs of fertilizer per acre at 460 a ton.
Your at 57 bucks an acre on fertilizer and haven’t put the first seed on the ground. Secondly that fertilizer bill is going to bite again in the spring to replace all the nutrients pulled out by the oats. It’s real easy to :bs: yourself winter pasture is not cheap. It’s premium priced pasture that has to be replaced every winter, that hay field won’t leave you.
A half butted hay field will raise you 6 to 8 tons per acre over the summer.
How in the heck does it take 250 pounds of fertilizer to get 50 pounds of nitrogen...
100 pounds of urea is 46 pounds of nitrogen.

I guess that's why all that oats and wheat are drilled to run cattle every winter. And we plant haygrazer behind the oats. The oats in the photo above have received no fertilizer. They will in the spring. Their living off the fertilizer left from the haygrazer. You keep buying your hay a bale at a time from tsc and making fun of back forty cattle....at least I got a back forty
A 21% blend that is 21 lbs of N to the 100 lbs of fertilizer.So you would have to throw 250 lbs per acre to get 52 lbs of N.
That’s actually below TAMU’s recommendation
http://publications.tamu.edu/FORAGE/PUB ... 0Texas.pdf
I run sale-barn cattle.

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Re: why do we feed supplement ?

Post by callmefence » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:02 pm

Caustic Burno wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:50 pm
callmefence wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:48 pm
Caustic Burno wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:27 pm


Let’s see rye grass is 70 dollars a hundred and you haven’t even got in the truck to pick it up.
Decent stand of oats requires 50 pounds of N per acre that’s roughly 250 lbs of fertilizer per acre at 460 a ton.
Your at 57 bucks an acre on fertilizer and haven’t put the first seed on the ground. Secondly that fertilizer bill is going to bite again in the spring to replace all the nutrients pulled out by the oats. It’s real easy to :bs: yourself winter pasture is not cheap. It’s premium priced pasture that has to be replaced every winter, that hay field won’t leave you.
A half butted hay field will raise you 6 to 8 tons per acre over the summer.
How in the heck does it take 250 pounds of fertilizer to get 50 pounds of nitrogen...
100 pounds of urea is 46 pounds of nitrogen.

I guess that's why all that oats and wheat are drilled to run cattle every winter. And we plant haygrazer behind the oats. The oats in the photo above have received no fertilizer. They will in the spring. Their living off the fertilizer left from the haygrazer. You keep buying your hay a bale at a time from tsc and making fun of back forty cattle....at least I got a back forty
A 21% blend that is 21 lbs of N to the 100 lbs of fertilizer.So you would have to throw 250 lbs per acre to get 52 lbs of N.
That’s actually below TAMU’s recommendation
http://publications.tamu.edu/FORAGE/PUB ... 0Texas.pdf
That's straight ammonia sulfate.more than Twice the cost of urea. The only reason to use it is if you're trying to correct soil pH. If you don't know what your doing......then your right , just buy hay and bagged feed.
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Re: why do we feed supplement ?

Post by Lucky » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:10 pm

Hardin Farms wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:43 am
Lucky wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:18 am
The easiest way to tell if cows needs a supplement is too look at their poop. Best thing about the poop study is that it works any time of year and in any conditions. Early spring might fool you but generally just look at the poop.
Would you mind elaborating on this a little? Im assuming poop shouldnt be thin, but shouldnt stack up? If you have a small herd and only a few have poop that is stacking, how do you handle that?
You actually don’t want the manure to stack very high. 2-3 inches and a little thicker than pancake batter (when fresh). When you start seeing turd castles, no matter what time of year they need protein. I’m not very good at explaining things in detail so I’m going to try and attach an article that I found doing a quick search
https://www.beefmagazine.com/nutrition/ ... nal-status

As for some cows manure being different in the same herd I’d say you have some trough hogs as Farmgirl stated or those cows need something. That something could be mineral or a probiotic or it could be she just doesn’t break down forage very good, in other words she’s not efficient. I hate to say this but a lot of knowing what a cow needs is just Cowboy logic, it’s funny what you learn riding a horse or feeding cattle with guys that do this for a living.
Last edited by Lucky on Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: why do we feed supplement ?

Post by 1982vett » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:11 pm

Whelp...I’ve started at least 5 posts and couldn’t shorten it up enough to get my point across quickly.

Since we didn’t get a break in the hot dry summer weather till 3 weeks ago I didn’t plant oats this year and I haven't bought hay. Made about 130 tons of hay off excess pasture last year. I’ll use the $6000 I didn’t spend planting oats to supplement that hay....if needed. The cool season grasses are coming on pretty good and should provide the extra kick the hay needs. Should work about the same way as last year after the army worms ate all my oats. Spent about $350 on extra protein last year. 🤔 Mostly because it made me feel better.
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Re: why do we feed supplement ?

Post by Lucky » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:22 pm

The deal with planting winter forage is all about timing. Most people just don’t have the time to hit it just right. Fence is lucky enough to work for himself and have employees that can help get oats in. I feed hay and supplement according to hay quality as a necessity due to time. I have a neighbor that plants oats every year and does well with it but he’s a full time farmer. Bottom line is it cost money to feed cows and everyone needs to do what works best in their situation. It’s fun to talk about it though and you never know you might even find a better way if you keep an open mind.

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Re: why do we feed supplement ?

Post by bball » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:28 pm

Lucky wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:22 pm
The deal with planting winter forage is all about timing. Most people just don’t have the time to hit it just right. Fence is lucky enough to work for himself and have employees that can help get oats in. I feed hay and supplement according to hay quality as a necessity due to time. I have a neighbor that plants oats every year and does well with it but he’s a full time farmer. Bottom line is it cost money to feed cows and everyone needs to do what works best in their situation. It’s fun to talk about it though and you never know you might even find a better way if you keep an open mind.
Well said! :clap:
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Re: why do we feed supplement ?

Post by Caustic Burno » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:38 pm

Lucky wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:10 pm
Hardin Farms wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:43 am
Lucky wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:18 am
The easiest way to tell if cows needs a supplement is too look at their poop. Best thing about the poop study is that it works any time of year and in any conditions. Early spring might fool you but generally just look at the poop.
Would you mind elaborating on this a little? Im assuming poop shouldnt be thin, but shouldnt stack up? If you have a small herd and only a few have poop that is stacking, how do you handle that?
You actually don’t want the manure to stack very high. 2-3 inches and a little thicker than pancake batter (when fresh). When you start seeing turd castles, no matter what time of year they need protein. I’m not very good at explaining things in detail so I’m going to try and attach an article that I found doing a quick search
https://www.beefmagazine.com/nutrition/ ... nal-status

As for some cows manure being different in the same herd I’d say you have some trough hogs as Farmgirl stated or those cows need something. That something could be mineral or a probiotic or it could be she just doesn’t break down forage very good, in other words she’s not efficient. I hate to say this but a lot of knowing what a cow needs is just Cowboy logic, it’s funny what you learn riding a horse or feeding cattle with guys that do this for a living.
Old saying you want to slip in it not trip over it.
I run sale-barn cattle.

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Re: why do we feed supplement ?

Post by Caustic Burno » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:51 pm

callmefence wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:02 pm
Caustic Burno wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:50 pm
callmefence wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:48 pm


How in the heck does it take 250 pounds of fertilizer to get 50 pounds of nitrogen...
100 pounds of urea is 46 pounds of nitrogen.

I guess that's why all that oats and wheat are drilled to run cattle every winter. And we plant haygrazer behind the oats. The oats in the photo above have received no fertilizer. They will in the spring. Their living off the fertilizer left from the haygrazer. You keep buying your hay a bale at a time from tsc and making fun of back forty cattle....at least I got a back forty
A 21% blend that is 21 lbs of N to the 100 lbs of fertilizer.So you would have to throw 250 lbs per acre to get 52 lbs of N.
That’s actually below TAMU’s recommendation
http://publications.tamu.edu/FORAGE/PUB ... 0Texas.pdf
That's straight ammonia sulfate.more than Twice the cost of urea. The only reason to use it is if you're trying to correct soil pH. If you don't know what your doing......then your right , just buy hay and bagged feed.
Wrong again it’s nitrate not sulfate.
It’s all about soil needs to produce forage not the cheapest.
I run sale-barn cattle.

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