Fescue

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True Grit Farms
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Re: Fescue

Post by True Grit Farms » Mon May 27, 2019 10:28 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 10:14 pm
True Grit Farms wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 10:09 pm
No fairytale about it, it's happening all around you. You just need to open your eyes and think for yourself.
You must be the most contradictory person on the forum. You stated above that you are going to continue a free choice mineral program but you are advocating that it IS TOTALLY UNNECESSARY.

You tell us that we cannot believe anything we hear (posted on CT), yet you make assertions that mean nothing if they cannot be believed.
If I thought mineral was unnecessary I wouldn't be using free choice minerals now would I? I just refuse to think I know it all and there's only one way that works and everyone should follow along.


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Re: Fescue

Post by Bright Raven » Mon May 27, 2019 10:39 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 10:28 pm
Bright Raven wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 10:14 pm
True Grit Farms wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 10:09 pm
No fairytale about it, it's happening all around you. You just need to open your eyes and think for yourself.
You must be the most contradictory person on the forum. You stated above that you are going to continue a free choice mineral program but you are advocating that it IS TOTALLY UNNECESSARY.

You tell us that we cannot believe anything we hear (posted on CT), yet you make assertions that mean nothing if they cannot be believed.
If I thought mineral was unnecessary I wouldn't be using free choice minerals now would I? I just refuse to think I know it all and there's only one way that works and everyone should follow along.
Let's get back on track.

Seems we agree that a free choice mineral program has merit.

Let's get back to the original contention. That is substituting a program of administering MultiMin in place of a free choice mineral program.

I will repeat: I think that is nonsense. There are a lot of good reasons I believe that. The question is whether it is worth our time to flesh it out. It ain't to me.
"Looking for an honest man".
Diogenes.

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Re: Fescue

Post by True Grit Farms » Mon May 27, 2019 10:56 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 10:39 pm
True Grit Farms wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 10:28 pm
Bright Raven wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 10:14 pm


You must be the most contradictory person on the forum. You stated above that you are going to continue a free choice mineral program but you are advocating that it IS TOTALLY UNNECESSARY.

You tell us that we cannot believe anything we hear (posted on CT), yet you make assertions that mean nothing if they cannot be believed.
If I thought mineral was unnecessary I wouldn't be using free choice minerals now would I? I just refuse to think I know it all and there's only one way that works and everyone should follow along.
Let's get back on track.

Seems we agree that a free choice mineral program has merit.

Let's get back to the original contention. That is substituting a program of administering MultiMin in place of a free choice mineral program.

I will repeat: I think that is nonsense. There are a lot of good reasons I believe that. The question is whether it is worth our time to flesh it out. It ain't to me.
MultiMin 90 claims increased conception rates, and a possible decrease in vaccination immunity. Why wouldn't free choice mineral decrease vaccination immunity also? Is one type better or worse? Stronger or weaker? Or are some mineral companies covering up a problem just to sell more mineral at the expense of a cow? Life is full of different angles if your able to see them.
If we'd of know this we'd of picked our own cotton.

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Re: Fescue

Post by Nesikep » Mon May 27, 2019 11:16 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 10:56 pm


MultiMin 90 claims increased conception rates, and a possible decrease in vaccination immunity. Why wouldn't free choice mineral decrease vaccination immunity also? Is one type better or worse? Stronger or weaker? Or are some mineral companies covering up a problem just to sell more mineral at the expense of a cow? Life is full of different angles if your able to see them.
Why wouldn't free choice mineral decrease vaccination immunity? I'd say it's because you don't inject free choice minerals. Proper mineral levels (Copper in particular) is essential for proper immune system function.

Whatever program you're using, if you want to know if it's effective, just draw some blood and get it tested. I had a problem with all my best cows not breeding back, wish I'd have done the blood test years ago, I'd have a better herd for it... the best producing cows are going to be the first ones to have problems, so all your neighbors with cows that breed back fine on no mineral, either they are lucky enough to be in a place with adequate minerals in the ground or their cows aren't producing as well as they could be.
What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence
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Re: Fescue

Post by Silver » Mon May 27, 2019 11:52 pm

:pop:

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Re: Fescue

Post by SmokinM » Tue May 28, 2019 5:24 am

I hear the train a comin, rolling round the bend. We were having a good conversation, dam got derailed again.

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Re: Fescue

Post by True Grit Farms » Tue May 28, 2019 5:30 am

Nesikep wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 11:16 pm
True Grit Farms wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 10:56 pm


MultiMin 90 claims increased conception rates, and a possible decrease in vaccination immunity. Why wouldn't free choice mineral decrease vaccination immunity also? Is one type better or worse? Stronger or weaker? Or are some mineral companies covering up a problem just to sell more mineral at the expense of a cow? Life is full of different angles if your able to see them.
Why wouldn't free choice mineral decrease vaccination immunity? I'd say it's because you don't inject free choice minerals. Proper mineral levels (Copper in particular) is essential for proper immune system function.

Whatever program you're using, if you want to know if it's effective, just draw some blood and get it tested. I had a problem with all my best cows not breeding back, wish I'd have done the blood test years ago, I'd have a better herd for it... the best producing cows are going to be the first ones to have problems, so all your neighbors with cows that breed back fine on no mineral, either they are lucky enough to be in a place with adequate minerals in the ground or their cows aren't producing as well as they could be.
Nesikep, most of the old timers around here don't feed mineral, and some have really nice herds of commercial cows. They have culled cattle for years that didn't work, instead of propping them up with feed and minerals. I'm not saying that's the way to manage your herd, but I know it works. When did supplementing cattle with minerals become a management tool?
If we'd of know this we'd of picked our own cotton.

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Re: Fescue

Post by Bright Raven » Tue May 28, 2019 5:42 am

True Grit Farms wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 5:30 am
Nesikep wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 11:16 pm
True Grit Farms wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 10:56 pm


MultiMin 90 claims increased conception rates, and a possible decrease in vaccination immunity. Why wouldn't free choice mineral decrease vaccination immunity also? Is one type better or worse? Stronger or weaker? Or are some mineral companies covering up a problem just to sell more mineral at the expense of a cow? Life is full of different angles if your able to see them.
Why wouldn't free choice mineral decrease vaccination immunity? I'd say it's because you don't inject free choice minerals. Proper mineral levels (Copper in particular) is essential for proper immune system function.

Whatever program you're using, if you want to know if it's effective, just draw some blood and get it tested. I had a problem with all my best cows not breeding back, wish I'd have done the blood test years ago, I'd have a better herd for it... the best producing cows are going to be the first ones to have problems, so all your neighbors with cows that breed back fine on no mineral, either they are lucky enough to be in a place with adequate minerals in the ground or their cows aren't producing as well as they could be.
Nesikep, most of the old timers around here don't feed mineral, and some have really nice herds of commercial cows. They have culled cattle for years that didn't work, instead of propping them up with feed and minerals. I'm not saying that's the way to manage your herd, but I know it works. When did supplementing cattle with minerals become a management tool?
Vince the need to employ minerals as a management tool began when animal scientist figured out that producers were losing livestock due to mineral deficiencies. Grass Tetany due to magnesium deficiency was one of the earliest causes that led animal scientist to recommend mineral supplementation.
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Re: Fescue

Post by Bright Raven » Tue May 28, 2019 5:47 am

SmokinM wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 5:24 am
I hear the train a comin, rolling round the bend. We were having a good conversation, dam got derailed again.
Yes. I apologize. I lost discipline. I had no intention of going down this injectable mineral rabbit hole.
"Looking for an honest man".
Diogenes.

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Re: Fescue

Post by Bright Raven » Tue May 28, 2019 5:54 am

Also milk fever due to calcium deficiency was an early motivation for mineral supplementation.
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Re: Fescue

Post by Ebenezer » Tue May 28, 2019 7:42 am

most of the old timers around here don't feed mineral, and some have really nice herds of commercial cows. They have culled cattle for years that didn't work, instead of propping them up with feed and minerals. I'm not saying that's the way to manage your herd, but I know it works. When did supplementing cattle with minerals become a management tool?
Grazing KY 31 fescue? Endophyte infected KY31 is a whole different animal than other grasses.

The mineral needs are largely based on the soils and the forages where you are or should be. Once you know or can tell by observations you know that they deliver the needed supplements to the cows. In KY 31 with endophyte, the endophyte apparently masks or can interfere with copper absorption. And I think it is copper that needs zinc in combo and in quantity to be utilized. Find a chart of the US that shows selenium status of the soils. That will also help you decide if you need maximum selenium as allowed by law. So it is not all easy science.

There are plenty of good minerals around but you need to learn to read tags and get what you want. We have a group that bulk orders from a regional manufacturer and get a high grade mineral for lot less than discussed here but it is not the cheapest either. You get what you pay for if you shop around and do not get hung up on a brand name. And a lot of the elements and such are based on China prices and sources in some cases.

The easiest way to know if your cattle need minerals are observations. Do 90% (or your threshold) of them breed back on time. Are black calves born with red hair coats? Do cows and calves shed later than you want? Do your cows live in the pond in the summer or only graze in the evening and at night? Do your cows lose hooves, tail switches, walk on tip toes, pant and struggle in the summer?

Opinions: I will not do injections on minerals. A waste of my time if all of my goals are met via loose minerals. This is an opinion also: some of the higher performance type cattle probably need more mineral inputs and higher quality to retain their honor. We see that in the dairy industry where minerals of the chelate form are widely toted along with the yeast source of selenium.

As some have said, find the cows that work for what you are willing to spend and either make money or have bragging rights. But we could not run cattle as economically here if we did not use decent minerals. As an old co-worker used to say, " Been there, done that".

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Re: Fescue

Post by Texasmark » Tue May 28, 2019 8:12 am

kenny thomas wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 7:38 am
TennesseeTuxedo wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 7:24 am
Re: Feeding cows on fescue grass
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Post by pricefarm » Sun May 26, 2019 9:01 pm

“I never know fescue grass was bad for cattle till I came here. That's basically the only grass we have. If a cow can not make it on what I have to feed it then she moves on down the road somewhere else. Iam not going to spend a fortune buying high dollar minerals and other stuff to try and make a cow do what it is suppose to do.”

Best comment to date on grazing fescue. I do put out medicated mineral, however.
I have read and respect the comments of Brookhill and BR on the mineral each uses. But when I look at $35-$40 a bag I just can't make myself do it.
I have 2 cows now that aren't handling the heat well. Both will get culled before winter. Kinda odd that they are both registered Angus.
But actually I have never had a cow that's not Angus seem to suffer from the fescue and heat. Maybe that's another topic.
Down here you add ⅜ Brahman to tolerate heat and grow Brangus cattle. Wink.

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Re: Fescue

Post by Bright Raven » Tue May 28, 2019 9:00 am

kenny thomas wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 9:29 pm
If you don't mind me asking what do you spend on mineral per year on 20 cows? I'm trying to get a handle on cost per cow? Your grazing looks about like mine except I stockpile for the winter and they graze most of the winter.
How much does their intake change in the winter?
Here it is Kenny. I purchased 7 fifty pound bags of VitaFerm Concept Aid during calendar year 2018. This information was based on receipts in my tax expenses for feed. I include minerals as feed when I complete Schedule F.

This does not include cost of loose white salt. In accordance with VitaFerm, I put out loose white salt with the Vitaferm.

Thus, I put out a total of 350 pounds of VitaFerm mineral in 2018.

I have 20 head of cows. They calve in September/October. That figures to 20 head of mature cows and 20 head of calves. I keep most of the calves for at least a year from birth. I sell breeding stock. The bulls are kept for a year and leave the farm after a BSE. The heifers stay approximately 18 months and are either retained or sold as breds.

This is figured as 20 head and each calf is figured as a half head. Since some of the calves do not go all the way to the end of the year due mainly to culling of breeding stock, I rounded down to 26 head.

Thus, 26 head and 350 pounds equals an intake of approximately 13 pounds of mineral per head per year. That is .57 ounces per day.

What is not in these figures is WASTE. If you consider waste of mineral, probably only about .5 ounces is actually consumed.

Total cost at 36/bag- $252
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Re: Fescue

Post by Redgully » Tue May 28, 2019 9:48 am

Sounds like you guys need some red poll blood in your herds for health, they can get by on whatever they're given. Then, if you feed them up they'll beef right up for ya.

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Re: Fescue

Post by Bright Raven » Tue May 28, 2019 10:55 am

Ebenezer wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 7:42 am
most of the old timers around here don't feed mineral, and some have really nice herds of commercial cows. They have culled cattle for years that didn't work, instead of propping them up with feed and minerals. I'm not saying that's the way to manage your herd, but I know it works. When did supplementing cattle with minerals become a management tool?
Grazing KY 31 fescue? Endophyte infected KY31 is a whole different animal than other grasses.

The mineral needs are largely based on the soils and the forages where you are or should be. Once you know or can tell by observations you know that they deliver the needed supplements to the cows. In KY 31 with endophyte, the endophyte apparently masks or can interfere with copper absorption. And I think it is copper that needs zinc in combo and in quantity to be utilized. Find a chart of the US that shows selenium status of the soils. That will also help you decide if you need maximum selenium as allowed by law. So it is not all easy science.

There are plenty of good minerals around but you need to learn to read tags and get what you want. We have a group that bulk orders from a regional manufacturer and get a high grade mineral for lot less than discussed here but it is not the cheapest either. You get what you pay for if you shop around and do not get hung up on a brand name. And a lot of the elements and such are based on China prices and sources in some cases.

The easiest way to know if your cattle need minerals are observations. Do 90% (or your threshold) of them breed back on time. Are black calves born with red hair coats? Do cows and calves shed later than you want? Do your cows live in the pond in the summer or only graze in the evening and at night? Do your cows lose hooves, tail switches, walk on tip toes, pant and struggle in the summer?

Opinions: I will not do injections on minerals. A waste of my time if all of my goals are met via loose minerals. This is an opinion also: some of the higher performance type cattle probably need more mineral inputs and higher quality to retain their honor. We see that in the dairy industry where minerals of the chelate form are widely toted along with the yeast source of selenium.

As some have said, find the cows that work for what you are willing to spend and either make money or have bragging rights. But we could not run cattle as economically here if we did not use decent minerals. As an old co-worker used to say, " Been there, done that".
I appreciate this knowledgeable post, thanks.

The only comment is that mineral deficiencies also are observable in the form of infertility, low immunity, footrot etc.
"Looking for an honest man".
Diogenes.

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