Bull Sale: Quality

Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of your favorite breed.
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Re: Bull Sale: Quality

Post by CreekAngus » Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:32 am

southernultrablack wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:48 am
CreekAngus wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:37 am
Yesterday, here locally, the sale barn put on a consignment bull sale, 28 bulls were entered, almost all Angus, 1 Hereford, 1 Charolais, 2 Red Angus. Only four bulls were quality, 2 Angus the Charolais and a Red. $2,750 was the top, but that same consignor also had the bottom at $1,400. There were bulls there that weaned off under 600 lbs and for the life of me I can’t figure out why anyone would want to put in the expense to raise a total turd of a bull. They would run a yearling bull across the scale and post 900 lb weights and my daughter would yell out,”my show heifer weighed 810 lbs at weaning!” I know we give a lot of grief to one another about our operations and how we do things, especially Brookhill. But I can respect Brookhill, he’s attempting to make great cattle, I can’t respect idiots raising steer prospects into bulls.
Are you basing your poor quality judgement on weight alone, or were there other contributing factors to it?
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Re: Bull Sale: Quality

Post by CreekAngus » Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:39 am

Weight does matter, those of us raising seed stock are showcasing performance. How we choose to develop that performance differs. I do creep feed, but not free choice, but I don’t have any issue with someone who does fill up the creep feeder and let them have at it. My boys have got to show the ability to grow, hoping those genes get passed to their progeny. If pounds don’t matter then why is “Midland” so dang popular? Pounds matter to the commercial guy, the buyer at the sale barn, the guy retaining ownership all the way to the rail, the feed lot and the packing plant.
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Re: Bull Sale: Quality

Post by Ebenezer » Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:02 am

CreekAngus wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:39 am
Weight does matter, those of us raising seed stock are showcasing performance. How we choose to develop that performance differs. I do creep feed, but not free choice, but I don’t have any issue with someone who does fill up the creep feeder and let them have at it. My boys have got to show the ability to grow, hoping those genes get passed to their progeny. If pounds don’t matter then why is “Midland” so dang popular? Pounds matter to the commercial guy, the buyer at the sale barn, the guy retaining ownership all the way to the rail, the feed lot and the packing plant.
Where do you deal with brood cow efficiency? Do you want 2000 pound brood cows? The AAA is trying to fix the long term chase for terminal traits right now. They have publicly admitted their short sightedness. Any efficiency plan of a cow calf producer is started with minimizing feed costs as the #1 cost of anybody who tries to raise cattle or most livestock. The people who will net the most will have the most relative size brood cow for their environment, on the average, and the most fertile females. Convenience traits make it easier as extra considerations and decrease labor such as proper feet and hooves, adequate udders and teats, mothering ability and such. You, as an individual, can add in other things that you like or need in your environment such as longevity, calf vigor, color and such. But the cow herd's efficiency is every one's business foundation and then you can choose to use a terminal bull(s) to get bigger sale animals or not.

Midlands is popular when so many performance tests across the US have ceased. I do not know the real answer but it is a place to find a bull that has not been pampered at "home", has a lack of true contemporaries (from the same source of birth and management until taken to Midlands) but the individuals are proven on feet and legs in lots, health, vigor, carcass and growth. Would you call these traits maternal or terminal?

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Re: Bull Sale: Quality

Post by True Grit Farms » Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:07 am

The most important thing to me is how an animal grows on MY hay and pasture. Any clown using AI or ET can breed a big cow to a big bull and pour the feed to them and get big calves. It's not rocket science. I'd be embarrassed to try and sell a skinny or small frame animal private treaty, around here we cull them.
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Re: Bull Sale: Quality

Post by elkwc » Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:52 am

There are a lot of factors in this area that have an influence on weaning weights. Fall born calves will be lighter. Also if they were creep fed, pasture(dead grass or wheat) the cows are eating and severity of winter. I consider all factors before I cull a calve on weaning weight. And use only a tual weights eith a straight adj

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Re: Bull Sale: Quality

Post by NEFarmwife » Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:09 am

We saw weaning weights a lot lighter this past year than in previous. While we had a lot of rain and the grass was lush, it was washy. Something a creep could have fixed.

Our averages though were still decent. Everyone in these parts, suffered the same... except those who aren't honest.
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Re: Bull Sale: Quality

Post by CreekAngus » Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:47 am

Ebenezer wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:02 am
CreekAngus wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:39 am
Weight does matter, those of us raising seed stock are showcasing performance. How we choose to develop that performance differs. I do creep feed, but not free choice, but I don’t have any issue with someone who does fill up the creep feeder and let them have at it. My boys have got to show the ability to grow, hoping those genes get passed to their progeny. If pounds don’t matter then why is “Midland” so dang popular? Pounds matter to the commercial guy, the buyer at the sale barn, the guy retaining ownership all the way to the rail, the feed lot and the packing plant.
Where do you deal with brood cow efficiency? Do you want 2000 pound brood cows? The AAA is trying to fix the long term chase for terminal traits right now. They have publicly admitted their short sightedness. Any efficiency plan of a cow calf producer is started with minimizing feed costs as the #1 cost of anybody who tries to raise cattle or most livestock. The people who will net the most will have the most relative size brood cow for their environment, on the average, and the most fertile females. Convenience traits make it easier as extra considerations and decrease labor such as proper feet and hooves, adequate udders and teats, mothering ability and such. You, as an individual, can add in other things that you like or need in your environment such as longevity, calf vigor, color and such. But the cow herd's efficiency is every one's business foundation and then you can choose to use a terminal bull(s) to get bigger sale animals or not.

Midlands is popular when so many performance tests across the US have ceased. I do not know the real answer but it is a place to find a bull that has not been pampered at "home", has a lack of true contemporaries (from the same source of birth and management until taken to Midlands) but the individuals are proven on feet and legs in lots, health, vigor, carcass and growth. Would you call these traits maternal or terminal?
I deal with the maternal on the side, we're supposed to deal with it, on the maternal, my cows. I don't have 2000lb cattle, mine sit right around 1600 and yeah, our environment isn't your environment. I live in an area where cows get fed 9 months out of the year, the only time we really have grass is the spring, but it's so abundant making feed is easy. I'm one of the few that manages pastures, I put in a fall pasture of oats and peas. If I was raising seed stock on the east side of this state for range land cowboys, my inputs would change some, but not a lot. I strongly believe in the seed stock world we need to be able to show the buyer the potential they are purchasing. If a guy don't want my 800lbs at weaning bull, that's fine, there's a bunch of low rent bulls that just went through a sale who scaled at 950lbs at 14 months old. Buy them. Since we feed in this environment, I want to show what my guys and gals do on feed. Like I stated, we don't free choice, even though most cattle in my area are fed that way. Most folks dump a round bale in the feeder and let them have at it. Only time I do free choice for cattle is if we are really cold or late summer (spring calve). I also live in an area where retaining ownership is rare, most heifers and steers (if they even make that effort) are weaned at the sale barn.
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Re: Bull Sale: Quality

Post by Brookhill Angus » Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:58 am

Here is what we put on our pastures in spring, as long as we don't crowd too many cattle in, they can stay pretty thick all summer long and into the fall. It's not cheap at $109 per 50lb bag, but when you consider what you get out of it in forage, it looks like a bargain.

270

We also seed Ladino in areas not used for hay.
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Re: Bull Sale: Quality

Post by Brookhill Angus » Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:11 am

CreekAngus wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:47 am
Ebenezer wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:02 am
CreekAngus wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:39 am
Weight does matter, those of us raising seed stock are showcasing performance. How we choose to develop that performance differs. I do creep feed, but not free choice, but I don’t have any issue with someone who does fill up the creep feeder and let them have at it. My boys have got to show the ability to grow, hoping those genes get passed to their progeny. If pounds don’t matter then why is “Midland” so dang popular? Pounds matter to the commercial guy, the buyer at the sale barn, the guy retaining ownership all the way to the rail, the feed lot and the packing plant.
Where do you deal with brood cow efficiency? Do you want 2000 pound brood cows? The AAA is trying to fix the long term chase for terminal traits right now. They have publicly admitted their short sightedness. Any efficiency plan of a cow calf producer is started with minimizing feed costs as the #1 cost of anybody who tries to raise cattle or most livestock. The people who will net the most will have the most relative size brood cow for their environment, on the average, and the most fertile females. Convenience traits make it easier as extra considerations and decrease labor such as proper feet and hooves, adequate udders and teats, mothering ability and such. You, as an individual, can add in other things that you like or need in your environment such as longevity, calf vigor, color and such. But the cow herd's efficiency is every one's business foundation and then you can choose to use a terminal bull(s) to get bigger sale animals or not.

Midlands is popular when so many performance tests across the US have ceased. I do not know the real answer but it is a place to find a bull that has not been pampered at "home", has a lack of true contemporaries (from the same source of birth and management until taken to Midlands) but the individuals are proven on feet and legs in lots, health, vigor, carcass and growth. Would you call these traits maternal or terminal?
I deal with the maternal on the side, we're supposed to deal with it, on the maternal, my cows. I don't have 2000lb cattle, mine sit right around 1600 and yeah, our environment isn't your environment. I live in an area where cows get fed 9 months out of the year, the only time we really have grass is the spring, but it's so abundant making feed is easy. I'm one of the few that manages pastures, I put in a fall pasture of oats and peas. If I was raising seed stock on the east side of this state for range land cowboys, my inputs would change some, but not a lot. I strongly believe in the seed stock world we need to be able to show the buyer the potential they are purchasing. If a guy don't want my 800lbs at weaning bull, that's fine, there's a bunch of low rent bulls that just went through a sale who scaled at 950lbs at 14 months old. Buy them. Since we feed in this environment, I want to show what my guys and gals do on feed. Like I stated, we don't free choice, even though most cattle in my area are fed that way. Most folks dump a round bale in the feeder and let them have at it. Only time I do free choice for cattle is if we are really cold or late summer (spring calve). I also live in an area where retaining ownership is rare, most heifers and steers (if they even make that effort) are weaned at the sale barn.
Here is one of our Unmistakable bulls, he is 18 months old, and is fairly typical of what we put out here, we have better, but he is not from AI.

http://bit.ly/2Kg2DOF
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Re: Bull Sale: Quality

Post by True Grit Farms » Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:31 am

Brookhill Angus wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:58 am
Here is what we put on our pastures in spring, as long as we don't crowd too many cattle in, they can stay pretty thick all summer long and into the fall. It's not cheap at $109 per 50lb bag, but when you consider what you get out of it in forage, it looks like a bargain.

270

We also seed Ladino in areas not used for hay.
Exactly zero of that seed blend will grow here from June through October. At $109 for a bag of seed and then the fertilizer to make it produce sounds like it could get costly. I'm sure our cattle would gain an additional 20% on a mixture like that.
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Re: Bull Sale: Quality

Post by CreekAngus » Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:37 am

True Grit Farms wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:31 am
Brookhill Angus wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:58 am
Here is what we put on our pastures in spring, as long as we don't crowd too many cattle in, they can stay pretty thick all summer long and into the fall. It's not cheap at $109 per 50lb bag, but when you consider what you get out of it in forage, it looks like a bargain.

270

We also seed Ladino in areas not used for hay.
Exactly zero of that seed blend will grow here from June through October. At $109 for a bag of seed and then the fertilizer to make it produce sounds like it could get costly. I'm sure our cattle would gain an additional 20% on a mixture like that.
And exactly, we all have different environments. That seed blend would grow phenomenally well here, from April to July 5th and then go dormant till the next year, but we could pound that up into hay in June at 3 tons to the acre.
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Re: Bull Sale: Quality

Post by Dave » Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:15 pm

CreekAngus wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:39 am
I also live in an area where retaining ownership is rare, most heifers and steers (if they even make that effort) are weaned at the sale barn.
And that is exactly why I bought bulls from those guys down on the Willapa. They have been retaining ownership for 30+ years. That is the main stay of their business. Their cattle work for them all the way to the packers. Every year they hold back 24 bulls out of about 200 bull calves. They don't have birth weights, pedigrees, EPD's, or papers. Some are AI sired and they will sure tell you which ones they are. But they have better records than most registered breeders. They can tell you who the sire and dam are and how their other calves preformed at the feedlot and how they graded at the packers. And they are absolutely up front honest people to deal with.

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Re: Bull Sale: Quality

Post by Draper » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:32 pm

Depending on how they’d been feed, a 900lb yearling weight could be substantial. Your daughters show heifer likely had more feed first 6 months, than most bulls do their entire life.

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Re: Bull Sale: Quality

Post by sim.-ang.king » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:41 pm

Easy to get 700+ WW when you wean at 9 months, and "adjust" for 205.
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Re: Bull Sale: Quality

Post by Silver » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:48 pm

sim.-ang.king wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:41 pm
Easy to get 700+ WW when you wean at 9 months, and "adjust" for 205.
Only someone trying to fudge the numbers would pull a stunt like that.

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