Replacement Heifer Gain Target ?

Backgrounding & feeding questions.
ddd75
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Re: Replacement Heifer Gain Target ?

Postby ddd75 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:25 am

Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:Your contradictory statements make it difficult to follow your program. Either you calve spring & fall with 18 month old heifers- or you have 22-24 month old heifers calving in the spring. Which is it?

you worry about your program, i'll worry about mine.
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Jeanne - Simme Valley
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Re: Replacement Heifer Gain Target ?

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:53 am

Trust me, I don't worry about YOUR program. I worry about you giving "newbies" the wrong idea. I try to clarify "broad" statements.
You state you calve in the spring. You state most of your heifers calve at 18 months. On my calendar, that is an impossibility. Just saying, be a little clearer - or more accurate.
I have asked you to explain, and you go around the questions.
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Re: Replacement Heifer Gain Target ?

Postby ddd75 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:40 am

Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:Trust me, I don't worry about YOUR program. I worry about you giving "newbies" the wrong idea. I try to clarify "broad" statements.
You state you calve in the spring. You state most of your heifers calve at 18 months. On my calendar, that is an impossibility. Just saying, be a little clearer - or more accurate.
I have asked you to explain, and you go around the questions.



Right.. I'm giviing "newbies the wrong idea.. yet Beef magazine agress 100% with me with proven research.
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Jeanne - Simme Valley
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Re: Replacement Heifer Gain Target ?

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:57 am

I would really like to read that article. I read all the Beef Magazine e-blasts (weekly & daily) for my newsletter and that has completely escaped my reading.
Just because 1 person "might" have made a statement, does not make it true or useful. Let's see the research.
Besides, you still ignore the fact that your "facts" about your calving 18 month old heifers don't add up.
I am NOT trying to start an argument. I tend to avoid conflict. But, I do like to deal in facts. It is my position to be an educator. Have worked with the NY Junior Beef Producers and the adult group for probably more years than you have been in the business. Facts are facts. Let's deal with them.
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Re: Replacement Heifer Gain Target ?

Postby Supa Dexta » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:57 pm

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Re: Replacement Heifer Gain Target ?

Postby Silver » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:39 pm

Our calves are born first part of March to end of April. We turn the bulls out with the heifers same time as we turn them in with the bulls. If they aren't bred up in time to fit the calving window they leave. Heifer retention seems to be fine, so that's the program we stick with.
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Re: Replacement Heifer Gain Target ?

Postby littletom » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:50 pm

ddd75 wrote:
Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:Trust me, I don't worry about YOUR program. I worry about you giving "newbies" the wrong idea. I try to clarify "broad" statements.
You state you calve in the spring. You state most of your heifers calve at 18 months. On my calendar, that is an impossibility. Just saying, be a little clearer - or more accurate.
I have asked you to explain, and you go around the questions.



Right.. I'm giviing "newbies the wrong idea.. yet Beef magazine agress 100% with me with proven research.


Do show :pop:
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Re: Replacement Heifer Gain Target ?

Postby ddd75 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:56 am

since you are so educated and have so much experience in every area please do give your expert advice on what the target weight % would be to show my dumb uneducated, inexperienced a$$ ?

Thanks.
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Re: Replacement Heifer Gain Target ?

Postby ddd75 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:02 am

oh look what I found..


In this new era of elevated feed costs (both grain and hay), developing heifers from weaning to breeding involves a substantial investment. And, if heifers developed this winter fail to re-breed after their first calf next summer, much of the cost associated with developing them will not be recovered.

To avoid non-pregnant 2- and 3-year old cows at the end of the breeding season, producers are considering altering the nutritional development of heifers between weaning and first breeding. One of the quickest ways to maximize reproductive performance is to provide more nutrients. However, based on recently-reported data, this is probably not the most economical solution.

A New Approach
Historically, heifers have been developed to weigh approximately 60-65% of their mature body weight at breeding time (about 13-14 months old), in an effort to increase pregnancy rate. This practice has been based largely on evidence that: 1) increased energy intake during development improves heifer pregnancy rate, and 2) heifers developed to a body weight less than 65% take longer to re-breed after calving as a 2-year old. Yet, some argue that increasing the amount of feed provided (which increases costs substantially) in order to increase pregnancy rate leads to a long-term cycle of elevating costs and declining profitability on a cattle operation.

Several researchers have begun to explore the possibility of developing heifers at a slower rate, which ultimately leads to weights at first breeding that are lighter than historical averages. Nebraska research led by Dr. Rick Funston compared the long-term reproductive performance of two groups of crossbred heifers developed to 53% (low gain) and 58% (high gain) of mature body weight. The heifers were developed on identical rations (hay, wheat middlings, corn, and supplement), except for a difference in corn to reflect the increased gain in the “high gain” heifers. Interestingly, there was no difference between the two groups for pregnancy rates through the fourth breeding season (Table 1).

An economic evaluation was conducted by University of Nebraska researchers to follow-up on the reduced gain concept. The above data were used, in addition to data from an experiment by Creighton (also in Nebraska) where two development systems were compared: low gain (to 50% of mature weight, prior to breeding for 60 days) vs. high gain (to 55% of mature weight, prior to breeding for 45 days). Similarly, the low gain heifers had a pregnancy rate of 87% in a 60-day season compared to a pregnancy rate of 89% in a 45-day breeding season in the high gain heifers.

Using estimated feed costs and cattle prices over an 11-year period, the “low gain” heifers cost $27 per bred heifer less than the “high gain” heifers (Table 2), when data were averaged over the 11-year period. Average calf birth date, weight, difficulty, and loss were similar for both treatments, as well as calf gain and weaning weight
. It should be noted that this analysis was conducted prior to the recent hike in grain and hay prices. Thus, it’s possible that cost savings could be even larger today.



Looks like 50 - 55% target weight.. I was RIGHT ON.. These are LOW weight heifers. I'm sure it would be even more difference if they used low weight 50% vs. an average 65% weight.

Looks like maybe the teacher needs to go back to school. :nod:

$$$$$ in your pocket for the entire life of that cow.


BOOOOOOOOMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!! goes the dynamite..
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Jeanne - Simme Valley
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Re: Replacement Heifer Gain Target ?

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:52 am

ddd posted:
"No problems ever breeding back. I had a 14 month old give birth to a really nice bull calf this year. He's still on her ( I really need to wean him) and I was afraid she was too small.. she was like 800 lbs when she had him.. He was around 55 lb calf. She's grown great (no grain) and her calf looks really good. You can't tell him apart from any of my other calves."

"Anything around 650 - 700 lbs IMO is ready to bred.. which for my cows would be around 60% of full growth weight."

"yea.. they are usually around that mark at around weaning time. I usually wean off at around 8 months old."


"crazy to me how some people will hold a heifer until 2 to get bred.. then she's almost 3 before she calves?! mine have already thrown out a 2nd."

"I also give them some extra time to breed back. But they are usually on time. I try to take the calf off them early but this year I wasn't able to do it."

"almost all my calves are born in spring, so they usually all grow and breed back at the same time. When a bull breeds them they are ready IMO."

Yes, I read that article back when they posted it.
I have never debated the 50-55% or 60-65% issue.
I asked you to explain the "calving in the spring" and calving heifers at "mostly 18 months" old.

You say your heifers are having their 2nd calf by the age of 3 yrs old. Well, so are mine & most everyone else's in this business. i know some breeders don't breed them until they are 2 years of age to calve around 3 years, but most of them have breeds that don't mature at a younger age and some have their mind set on thinking they won't have any calving difficulties at that age. That's their breeding management decision.

This conversation has totally blown out of proportion. I did not (and do not) agree with breeding heifers at the age of 9 months. That's your choice. I was just trying to clarify how you were calving at 18 months old and not calving year round??? You wean at 8 months of age, so you must turn the bull in with heifers at 9 months old??
It boils down to your math and most other people's do not match up.
From what I can determine, you wean at 8 months old, turn the bull out with them at 9 months, calve them in the fall, then give them extra time to breed back, so they are bred with the cowherd to calve in the spring at 3 years old. Does that fit?
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Re: Replacement Heifer Gain Target ?

Postby ddd75 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:59 am

[quote="Jeanne - Simme Valley"]ddd posted:
/quote]


so you needed to see this 1 off article that you've never heard of... but then when posted you of course knew of that artcile and have never said you disagreed with it. then you don't agree with it in your next post.

Then you point out I'm trying for 14 month old heifers to be bred, then 18 month olds.. then say its impossible that they are calving at 18 months old. But yours are have a 2nd calf at 3 years old and mine are too.. you know it somehow.. :lol2: :lol2:

Arguing with a liberal... you gotta love it. :lol2:

I should of known when you started talking about how bulls are raping cows.
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Re: Replacement Heifer Gain Target ?

Postby Ky hills » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:36 am

I have always had a target age of 14-15 months to breed heifers. That puts them 2 yrs or very close, then hopefully they get bred back within 2-3 months or somewhere there about, that equates to them having their second calf at or around 3 yrs old.
Sometimes, although not ideal we will have a 13 month old heifer or 2-3 and if their pelvic measure is enough then we will usually go on and put them with a bull. On occasion we do have a heifer calf gets bred before weaning, and thankfully those situations have worked out ok in recent years, but I certainly would not want a practice of calving heifers before 22 months on much of a scale.
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Re: Replacement Heifer Gain Target ?

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:04 pm

ddd75 wrote:
Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:ddd posted:
/quote]


so you needed to see this 1 off article that you've never heard of... but then when posted you of course knew of that artcile and have never said you disagreed with it. then you don't agree with it in your next post.

Then you point out I'm trying for 14 month old heifers to be bred, then 18 month olds.. then say its impossible that they are calving at 18 months old. But yours are have a 2nd calf at 3 years old and mine are too.. you know it somehow.. :lol2: :lol2:

Arguing with a liberal... you gotta love it. :lol2:

I should of known when you started talking about how bulls are raping cows.


No, I did not need to see your article that you posted, because I NEVER disputed the SIZE of the animal getting bred. I asked where you got your information about breeding them "When a bull breeds them they are ready IMO."
You referred to: "Beef magazine agress 100% with me with proven research."

Let us get this a little clearer. The ONLY debate I am having with you (on my end) is your timing of breeding 9 month old heifers, calving at 18 months of age. PERIOD.
Since you don't understand how to read a calendar that has 12 months on it (at least mine does).
Born in spring. At age 9 months (weaned at 8 months), bull gets turned in & heifer gets bred. Calves at 18 months. Are you with me so far??? If she is born in the spring, and calves at 18 months of age, she is calving in the fall.
PERIOD. That is all I have been saying. It is you that keeps going off subject.
I think everyone else is following my conversation.
We both end up with the same end product. A heifer that has her 2nd calf by the age of 3 years old.
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Re: Replacement Heifer Gain Target ?

Postby Jeanne - Simme Valley » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:35 am

I've made my point.
I think you are proud of your herd, trying to make a point that you don't feed grain, and have good pastures to raise your nursing calves good enough that they are fertile and able to conceive at a very young age & can remain in the herd.
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Re: Replacement Heifer Gain Target ?

Postby Bright Raven » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:54 am

ddd75 wrote:
Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:ddd posted:
/quote]


Arguing with a liberal... you gotta love it. :lol2:

I should of known when you started talking about how bulls are raping cows.


Neighbor, you guys throw that liberal label around like it is a switchblade knife. Trust me. Jeanne is a firm Conservative. I see her Facebook every day!!!!!
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