HOW BIG A HERD TO MAKE IT A FULL TIME JOB??

[TANK30705]

I would like to hear opinions on how large a herd do you think it takes to make it financially just cattle farming full time???

[Ouachita]

Sounds like a loaded question. I'm certain it would depend on motive, and method. 2 variables that you have not mentioned

[Dave]

There are a lot of variables involved such as debt load, planned life style, etc. But the ones I have seen 300-400 momma cows seems to be a about the magic number. A debt free, simple life stule it can be done with less.

[Isomade]

Lots of variables. But for me, 100% debt free and I could make it work at about 350-400 with excellent low input management.

[ChrisB]

Also, are you thinking cow-calf operation? Backgrounding? Feedlot?

Do you raise any or all of your feed?

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Lots of variables. But for me, 100% debt free and I could make it work at about 350-400 with excellent low input management.

Why so many Iso? I was thinking around 200-240 assuming no debt to service.

[backhoeboogie]

Much of this is simply going to depend on what kind of life you want to live. Are you single? Do you have children? Do you have a lot of debt?

Isom has it just about right. 300 market calves, minus the input cost, would be a comfortable living for me.

[Isomade]

Lots of variables. But for me, 100% debt free and I could make it work at about 350-400 with excellent low input management.

Why so many Iso? I was thinking around 200-240 assuming no debt to service.

Prices won't bee this good forever, in the long term an operator who can average $100 profit per calf is a very good operator. Some years may be more and some will definitely be less. Those who stay in business after the prices come back to reality are the ones who are putting money back now and preparing for reality. 240 cows will wean 216 calves IF they can get 90% to market, thats a profit of $21,600 per year, but it doesn't work like that. You may lose money for two years then make a profit of $38k the next. You just can't tell.

[ohiosteve]

Personally I couldn't even imagine jumping into the beef cattle business starting from zero and expecting to live comfortably. Dairy on the other hand I think it is feasible if you are an efficient operator since you have a daily income you can predict with reasonable accuracy.

[TennesseeTuxedo]

So if a fella has everything paid for and only owes property taxes each year and he sells 200 calves weighing on average 600 pounds at and average price per pound of $1,50 (conservative in today's market where I am anyway) that would be $180,000 in gross revenue.

What the heck are these cows doing to burn through $160,000 to leave a net profit of just $20,000 if the net profit is only $100 a head?

[Isomade]

Personally I couldn't even imagine jumping into the beef cattle business starting from zero and expecting to live comfortably. Dairy on the other hand I think it is feasible if you are an efficient operator since you have a daily income you can predict with reasonable accuracy.

Can't do it from ZERO and expect to even come close. The ranchers around here that make a living with 300-500 are all between 75-85 years old and are very, very frugal. They have been doing it all their lives. They dont drive fancy trucks or have nice equipment. They make use of everything, and I mean everything. Every penny is accounted for. One of em refuses to have central heat and air in the house or any AC units of any kind for that matter.

[hooknline]

I've asked that question many times and never have gotten a straight answer.
My gut is telling me lots and lots of high dollar equipment, loans on the land, and other debt load.
Let's do some math real quick.
100 calves at 600 lb wean at 150 cwt sale price. That's 90,000.
Carrying cost of mom at 1.25/day at 365 days is 45,625 actual cost to carry 100 cows. That leaves
44,375 profit. Let's take out 50 bucks a calf for shots, supplies, implants erc. And that's a high number. That's still 39,375 profit.
Add in fertilizer cost, land taxes, and misc costs. Let's say another 100.00/ pair avg. and that's probably high. That's still leaves 29375 profit off 100 calves assuming a 100% calf crop. But wait, that not counting the cow as a retained asset and her sale price assuming she doesn't die on the farm.

[Isomade]

So if a fella has everything paid for and only owes property taxes each year and he sells 200 calves weighing on average 600 pounds at and average price per pound of $1,50 (conservative in today's market where I am anyway) that would be $180,000 in gross revenue.

What the heck are these cows doing to burn through $160,000 to leave a net profit of just $20,000 if the net profit is only $100 a head?

You quoted today's market price. What about those same calves at .95? That is a $66,000 swing in gross. .95 X 600 is $570, the national average to keep a cow for one year is $550. Tux, whatever you do don't figure on today's prices for the long haul. There is a bit of a margin but if prices don't drop expenses WILL go up enough to compensate for the difference.

[Isomade]

I've asked that question many times and never have gotten a straight answer.
My gut is telling me lots and lots of high dollar equipment, loans on the land, and other debt load.
Let's do some math real quick.
100 calves at 600 lb wean at 150 cwt sale price. That's 90,000.
Carrying cost of mom at 1.25/day at 365 days is 45,625 actual cost to carry 100 cows. That leaves
44,375 profit. Let's take out 50 bucks a calf for shots, supplies, implants erc. And that's a high number. That's still 39,375 profit.
Add in fertilizer cost, land taxes, and misc costs. Let's say another 100.00/ pair avg. and that's probably high. That's still leaves 29375 profit off 100 calves assuming a 100% calf crop. But wait, that not counting the cow as a retained asset and her sale price assuming she doesn't die on the farm.

You are figuring on TODAY'S prices. And you left out the cows that didn't calve and had calves that died. If you run 50 or more you are a very good operator to get 90% to sale. You have to feed those 10% that didn't as well. If you get 100 calves to sale you had 112 cows, 12 didn't wean a calf and they cost you $6000 to feed.

[Dave]

What does a $1.00 jump in diesel price do to your bottom line?

I don't know of anybody with less than 300 cows that is doing cattle and nothing else. Less than that and either the husband or the wive has a day job. Or they farm a bunch of ground. Or they own a bunch of timber ground. But they have another source of income.