Rules of ownership for showing?

The place to start if you are new!
Post Reply
tlan6556@aol.com
Cowhand
Cowhand
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:43 pm
Has thanked: 21 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Rules of ownership for showing?

Post by tlan6556@aol.com » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:01 pm

I am not in the show business (started this business too late in life), just a small breeding operation intending to produce show quality prospects. However, that leaves me out of the "marketing loop". So, I have an idea, but would like to know that it is within the rules, ethical and okay, and if any showman would be interested. Just to remind all, I am a rookie and if this a crazy idea, you can't hurt my feelings with an honest opinion.
Can I offer to a potential showman ownership (say for $100) of one of my calves for showing only, and then at the end of show season I have the first right to buy back at a the same price?



DLD
Trail Boss
Trail Boss
Posts: 425
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:12 pm
Location: SW Oklahoma
Has thanked: 108 times
Been thanked: 23 times

Re: Rules of ownership for showing?

Post by DLD » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:13 pm

It’s a very common practice. Depending on where you are, some state 4-H organizations even have a lease agreement that you can use. Some will say it violates the spirit of the rule, but basically as long as the registration papers are transferred by the shows required date of ownership, you’re good to go.

I would recommend that you get something in writing about who’s responsible for what (feed, entry fees, breeding, etc...) and when possession changes, etc... You might also consider insuring the heifer, just so everyone is covered in case something happens to her.

tlan6556@aol.com
Cowhand
Cowhand
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:43 pm
Has thanked: 21 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Rules of ownership for showing?

Post by tlan6556@aol.com » Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:03 pm

Thanks DLD! This arrangement could be a way for a kid who cant afford to buy a calf get into the show ring, I like it!! Thanks again!

User avatar
1982vett
GURU
GURU
Posts: 8900
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 7:57 pm
Location: Central Texas
Has thanked: 74 times
Been thanked: 137 times

Re: Rules of ownership for showing?

Post by 1982vett » Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:58 am

Sell for $100, buy back for $100?....I don’t know the ins and outs of these kinds of deals but I believe a showman should at least be compensated for expenses and labor. Even then, were the animal to place as a champion, around here that’s some serious $ so a bonus for placing might be in order. After all, wasn’t your objective to give a disadvantaged kid help?.....
Aug 7, 2019 22:51GMT -5 the illustrious potentate said:
Because you have the freedom to say what you think, doesn't always mean that you should.

The right to speak freely is not free of consequences.

tlan6556@aol.com
Cowhand
Cowhand
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:43 pm
Has thanked: 21 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Rules of ownership for showing?

Post by tlan6556@aol.com » Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:02 pm

Thank you for your thoughts!
This was just a raw concept I thought of, however, apparently it's not anything new. As I learn more about these kinds of deals, the details would be worked out with each individual showman. And yes, one of my objectives has always been to provide opportunities for kids to participate in raising animals and then showing them.
Also, as I noted previously, I do not show, never have, and am not in the loop of local showing families. I have found that breeding and producing is the easy part, but marketing the calves has been difficult. Mostly, I believe, because we are not known around the our local show community. Very early in this new operation I made more than one attempt to contact the local Ag teachers, but no response. I am a retired nurse, my husband is retired law enforcement and we started this just as a small hobby type operation.
So, another objective is to find ways I can get my calves into the market and at least my name known to the local Ag groups.
Any more ideas you may have are welcome, please send them on.

User avatar
Boot Jack Bulls
GURU
GURU
Posts: 1107
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2015 7:03 pm
Location: NW WI
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 134 times

Re: Rules of ownership for showing?

Post by Boot Jack Bulls » Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:32 pm

You're best bet, and in my opinion safest, it to find a young show person or persons in your area that really get out there and compete. Sell them your best show prospect at a really reasonable price and ask that they mention you when the calf(ves) do well. Work with them to your ability, stand behind your cattle and be prepared to help out when you can. Doing a contract with a youth who only shows once a year at county fair will only get you so far. Another idea is to get your name out there by sponsoring events (fitting clinics, bucket calf classes, awards at jackpots, ect.) You don't need to break the bank to get positive publicity. Also, having a known (not necessarily big name guy) clip up and help market your calves may be a really economical but effective method.
Boot Jack Cattle LLC & Boot Jack Boers

tlan6556@aol.com
Cowhand
Cowhand
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:43 pm
Has thanked: 21 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Rules of ownership for showing?

Post by tlan6556@aol.com » Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:12 pm

Thanks Boot Jack! Great advise, I am going to be way more active in my area and try to follow the 4H schedules very closely.
I am also a volunteer on the Health Committee of the Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo, but we cover the 00"exhibiting kids" health. I should expand my activities into the livestock committees.
I love doing this, but need to break even, or at least not loose too much money!

User avatar
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Mentor
Mentor
Posts: 11049
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 5:46 am
Location: Central Upstate New York
Has thanked: 555 times
Been thanked: 793 times

Re: Rules of ownership for showing?

Post by Jeanne - Simme Valley » Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:04 pm

Very common for kids to "lease" in 4-H. They must meet certain deadlines, you the owner have to sign & the kids sign the agreement.
Also, you can have the local 4-H have a contest where you donate a heifer to a child that wins an essay contest or the top Showmanship winner.
But, like Boot Jack stated, a kid showing just at the local County Fair is not a lot of exposure - unless you have a huge County Fair.
I, personally, don't like big farms "giving" (loaning) a kid an animal to drag around to PR their farm. Not fair to 4-H kids that raise or buy their own animals.
I have sponsored kids for many years. These are kids that don't have any animals of their own. They come to my farm and work with the calves, halter breaking, training to set up, clipping, etc. They show them at their County Fair, and many of the open fairs that we go to. But, I have the knowledge to teach them. A little different than your situation.
Simme Valley of New York - http://www.SimmeValley.com
"We make a living by what we get,
we make a life by what we give."

User avatar
darcelina4
Cowhand
Cowhand
Posts: 88
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:13 pm
Has thanked: 68 times
Been thanked: 33 times

Re: Rules of ownership for showing?

Post by darcelina4 » Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:06 pm

We have a small cattle operation. We raise bottle calves and have been growing our herd. We sell the calves we raise as family type cows and feeders that are halter broke tame and gentle. My daughter shows. We have always been on a limited budget. I'm a poor single mom that works a lot. My daughter did do really well with a beefmaster heifer that we raised. She was reserve grand commercial
heifer our county fair At 6 months old then at a year she was grand breeding heifer at our local show. It can be hard competing with a $210 calf against $10,000 calves. We never expect to win so it is spectacular when we do. This year my daughter is a senior. She wants to go out with a bang. She is showing the shorthorn/beefmaster steer out of her heifer, a registered red Angus heifer we bought several months ago, and another heifer to be obtained. 10 days ago she won the calf scramble at the tulsa state fair. She won an $800 certificate. I put out some ads and contacted people on their ads to see if they would sell her a registered heifer for the $800. 2 people said they would. We went and saw one heifer we love. I hope we get her but we have to get the certificate and get it done. I am surprised that so many farms wont sell her a spring born heifer for that price. I know it is low but it's more than they would bring at the salebarn and the heifer will show at 4 shows at least including OYE and the Tulsa State Fair. My daughter has won showmanship, livestock quiz bowl, dairy quiz bowl, ect. She is a serious ag student. One man did offer to lease her a heifer but she wont want to give it back after putting all that work and feed into it. Plus she falls in love with the calves. This is why she shows heifers not steers. This year she has a steer because that was what came out of her former show heifer. I'm sure next year is going to be very tough on her when his time is up. She is trying to make agriculture her profession. She will go to college to get a degree in ag. There are many kids that would show if they could buy a pretty good calf reasonable.

tlan6556@aol.com
Cowhand
Cowhand
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:43 pm
Has thanked: 21 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Rules of ownership for showing?

Post by tlan6556@aol.com » Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:00 pm

Thanks Jeanne, I see your point about the big farms just "using" the kids for PR. I will never be a "big" farm, don't expect to ever keep more than 4-5 cow/calf pairs. I understand I will not get rich doing this, but I can't loose too much money! I just enjoy staying active, learning new stuff, being around the animals and the kids. In general, my husband and I love the life.
I should have been born on a cattle ranch!

dfm
Beginner
Beginner
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:11 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Rules of ownership for showing?

Post by dfm » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:53 pm

As someone who has been in the position you are attempting to obtain, there are a few additional things to consider. The exhibitor(s) will take a young prospect and hopefully be successful and/or very successful with it. This will add additional value to the animal do to the work and care of the exhibitor and their parents. When a heifer left our place ( very rarely allow this to happen now ) the animal always went with an agreed upon return price. So, say you have first right to purchase back at the $100 or, they have the right to sell or keep for $2,000. Allows the exhibition family to return to you $2,000 and keep the animal upon completion of the show career or sell to another individual and pay you the agreed upon price and get paid the balance for their equity if someone offers a good price. I always felt that a prospect was worth X amount dollars when it leaves the farm and any additional dollars were equity dollars earned by the exhibitor.

tlan6556@aol.com
Cowhand
Cowhand
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:43 pm
Has thanked: 21 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Rules of ownership for showing?

Post by tlan6556@aol.com » Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:32 pm

That makes some sense to me. One of my reasons for wanting to protect my ownership opportunity is about breeding. I would like to establish a consistent breeding line of quality purebred shorthorns. When shopping for semen, I do a lot of research and reading about traits and EPDs with the goal of eliminating/minimizing the shortfalls and faults of the breed, while enhancing the desirable qualities of the breed. So, if I let a student take a calf that is part of my breeding plan to raise and show, I want to make sure I have the opportunity to put her back in my lineup when she is finished showing if I want. Whatever arrangement the exhibitor and I put together it must be fair and beneficial to the student exhibitor. It should be fun working with and getting to know the kids in our area!
Thanks for you thoughts dfm!

BC
GURU
GURU
Posts: 2439
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:55 am
Location: Van Zandt County, TX
Has thanked: 31 times
Been thanked: 22 times

Re: Rules of ownership for showing?

Post by BC » Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:42 pm

I have made an arrangement to let a 4-H kid have a heifer that I wanted to keep. We agreed that they fed and showed the heifer in exchange for the first calf. I felt that was fair trade for a well developed cow and the child got so.ething for their ti.e and feed.

tlan6556@aol.com
Cowhand
Cowhand
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:43 pm
Has thanked: 21 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Rules of ownership for showing?

Post by tlan6556@aol.com » Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:55 pm

Ah....that's a great idea! And yes, sounds very fair to me.
Thank you, you're a genius!

Post Reply