anyone NOT use mineral?

[RD-Sam]

In one sentence you say it's not a protein tub, in the other you say it is.
What your talking about is a feed suppliment protein tub with minerals in it.
Not loose minerals.
And then you say your spending 6k a year. But theyre only eating 500 lbs a month. Those tubs would be 250 bucks each. Unless your leaving more details out and not even sure what it is you're putting out.

Crystalyx calls it a mineral tub with protein in it, not me. In fact, you can get various levels of protein in your mineral tub. They are designed so that they get all the mineral they need with whatever protein level you think your hay lacks.

The 500 lbs a month was a wrong number, it's 1000 lbs - 4 tubs a month - my deepest regrets for the innacuracy. They are about $120 each.

Now that we've picked all the fly shyt out of the pepper - does anyone NOT use mineral and what's your experience?

Yep, mine went without mineral for a couple of years, and they looked like shyte, one cow in particular weighed 1150 pounds at weaning, now she weighs about 1450 at weaning, she also weans about 200 pounds more calf. Have another that weighed around 1200 at weaning, now over 1400, she also weans 200 pounds heavier calves. The little extras go a long way. You have something wrong for sure if they are consuming that much though, it's possible the product isn't any good, or they are trying to make up for something else they are lacking.

[TexasBred]

Mineral manufacturers add ingredients to the formulation to make the mix more palatable. It's a real fine balancing act tryng to figure out how much to include to get recommended consumption. Too much will cause them to overconsume it day in and day out. Too little and they don't eat enough. If the consumption is seasonal then the cattle obviously need the mineral but should never eat a huge amount more than the recommended amount.

[rockridgecattle]

We use minerals. However, the last 6 months the animals have consumed way less than they should. Practically nothing. We have noticed a significant difference compared to this time last year
Black cattle have a red tinge in the coat...sign of copper deficiency
All cattle coats look like crap
Calves coming out weak, not raring to go like normal years
Calves are needing treatment dosage of selenium rather than the preventative
Milk quality seems lacking
Case of lumpy jaw...which we had hoped we eliminated a while back
4 cases of mastitis, and the cows having a hard time getting better, last case 12 years ago
3 cases of bacterial pnemonia...hard to treat, cows taking a long time to recover, not had on the farm for 14years
2 cased of retained placenta, 1 not responding to treatment protocols
4 calves flat out post birthing, birthing ok, no sack around the face. Just try and get up then lay flat out.
40% of the calves have needed help sucking, 20% of them have required intervention more than once
This calving season is one i hope to forget sooner rather than later

[Banjo]

We use minerals. However, the last 6 months the animals have consumed way less than they should. Practically nothing. We have noticed a significant difference compared to this time last year
Black cattle have a red tinge in the coat...sign of copper deficiency
All cattle coats look like crap
Calves coming out weak, not raring to go like normal years
Calves are needing treatment dosage of selenium rather than the preventative
Milk quality seems lacking
Case of lumpy jaw...which we had hoped we eliminated a while back
4 cases of mastitis, and the cows having a hard time getting better, last case 12 years ago
3 cases of bacterial pnemonia...hard to treat, cows taking a long time to recover, not had on the farm for 14years
2 cased of retained placenta, 1 not responding to treatment protocols
4 calves flat out post birthing, birthing ok, no sack around the face. Just try and get up then lay flat out.
40% of the calves have needed help sucking, 20% of them have required intervention more than once
This calving season is one i hope to forget sooner rather than later

Sometimes things just go awry I think. Things can go fine for years and boom something or things happen like you have described that make you wonder what you did wrong. I know every year for me is a little bit different and I figure about 10-15 % problem rate is normal, be it calving issues or breeding back or something. Thats where hard culling comes in and should be taking place. This last year or so I have started feeding Redmond Natural sea salt, it is supposed to contain over 50 minerals mostly in trace amounts, so far so good. I don't think cattle get enough salt out of some of the mineral mixes, unless you just keep it before them at all times and then they can get too much of something else IMO. I think a good quality mineral/vitamin mix during the last trimester may be good to do if it is of the highest quality.

[Banjo]

We use minerals. However, the last 6 months the animals have consumed way less than they should. Practically nothing. We have noticed a significant difference compared to this time last year
Black cattle have a red tinge in the coat...sign of copper deficiency
All cattle coats look like crap
Calves coming out weak, not raring to go like normal years
Calves are needing treatment dosage of selenium rather than the preventative
Milk quality seems lacking
Case of lumpy jaw...which we had hoped we eliminated a while back
4 cases of mastitis, and the cows having a hard time getting better, last case 12 years ago
3 cases of bacterial pnemonia...hard to treat, cows taking a long time to recover, not had on the farm for 14years
2 cased of retained placenta, 1 not responding to treatment protocols
4 calves flat out post birthing, birthing ok, no sack around the face. Just try and get up then lay flat out.
40% of the calves have needed help sucking, 20% of them have required intervention more than once
This calving season is one i hope to forget sooner rather than later

This is my sixth year not having used any commercial fertilize, this is my first year doing intensive grazing, I already see I'm liking that. When I stopped using fertilize my grass kept growing believe it or not. Now I'm may have gotten some mileage out of the fertilize for a year or two that was already there, but not six years worth. I run about a hundred angus mixed cows and I have to say that since the commercial fertilize stopped the health problems have slowed way down. I still have 1 or 2 cows and 2 or 3 calves get pinkeye every year but it doesn't ever seem to go viral(everyone having it). I take a garden sprayer and mix a solution of sea salt in it and spray in their eyes and in clears it up I may have to do it twice. I seldom have one that won't breed back, some that are later than I like but I guess its par for the course.
My point in all this I guess is that I think we often times create imbalances by applying NPK especially N, while our fields are nice and dark from the N and growing a little faster .....only when it rains. We are destroying the humus
and life of the soil. Therefore we have all this lush pasture we have artificially created, but then on the other hand we see all these problems. my soil tests show that I am a little low on Phosphorus but it is was like that six years ago. I would have thought by now it should all be depleted but nothing has changed.
The more we can stay natural and sustainable the less imbalances we are going to create my farm isn't the best land in the country but I don't let it get out of balance.This is just my humble opinion.

[rockridgecattle]

I am glad it has worked for you.
For us not so. Everthing that has happened this year on the farm is costly. Not only in the medications to treat, but in breed back on time for the cows. Cows which lack proper minerals will not breed back on time...costly. Cows with serious retained placenta issues rarely breed back on time. Weak calves lead to dead calves...hits directly on the pocket book and the bottom line. Lumpy Jaw can turn a really good cow into a worthless cow in short order if not caught quicky and be very expensive to treat.
We are in an iodine, copper and selenium deficient area
Copper is linked to the poor coats and red tinge on the black animals
Iodine is linked to lumpy jaw, woody tongue and foot rot. If you have ever had to fight the first two, you know it is an up hill battle only to be prevented by iodine
Selenium deficiency is linked to retained placenta, turned under hoofs of the calves at birth. Both of which can be very hard on the pocket book.
Weak calves, calves that need to be assisted after birth, stupid calves, linked not only to selenium but copper, vit a and d and e.
Now not saying the pnemonia and mastitis are directly linked to the lack of mineral. However, had they been consuming minerals properly, the body would not have had such a hard time recovering.

Finally, have you ever met a phosphorus or copper or calcium magnesium deficient cow? Let me recall from memory (15 years back).
pnemonia and matitis were issues, yes. But so were fence posts....could not keep one in the ground cause the cows ate them all....dang costly if you ask me.
Could not keep a tractor in the pasture unguarded for a moment...all the wiring stripped away in minutes...just by turning the back and taking twine off the bales
Milking fever...that is just not a pretty sight
and poor milk quality...well hits the pocket book pretty quickly.

You live in Kentucky. I live in Manitoba Canada. Completely different climates. We feed hay 7-8 months of the year. Doubt you have to do that.

[Banjo]

I am glad it has worked for you.
For us not so. Everthing that has happened this year on the farm is costly. Not only in the medications to treat, but in breed back on time for the cows. Cows which lack proper minerals will not breed back on time...costly. Cows with serious retained placenta issues rarely breed back on time. Weak calves lead to dead calves...hits directly on the pocket book and the bottom line. Lumpy Jaw can turn a really good cow into a worthless cow in short order if not caught quicky and be very expensive to treat.
We are in an iodine, copper and selenium deficient area
Copper is linked to the poor coats and red tinge on the black animals
Iodine is linked to lumpy jaw, woody tongue and foot rot. If you have ever had to fight the first two, you know it is an up hill battle only to be prevented by iodine
Selenium deficiency is linked to retained placenta, turned under hoofs of the calves at birth. Both of which can be very hard on the pocket book.
Weak calves, calves that need to be assisted after birth, stupid calves, linked not only to selenium but copper, vit a and d and e.
Now not saying the pnemonia and mastitis are directly linked to the lack of mineral. However, had they been consuming minerals properly, the body would not have had such a hard time recovering.

Finally, have you ever met a phosphorus or copper or calcium magnesium deficient cow? Let me recall from memory (15 years back).
pnemonia and matitis were issues, yes. But so were fence posts....could not keep one in the ground cause the cows ate them all....dang costly if you ask me.
Could not keep a tractor in the pasture unguarded for a moment...all the wiring stripped away in minutes...just by turning the back and taking twine off the bales
Milking fever...that is just not a pretty sight
and poor milk quality...well hits the pocket book pretty quickly.

You live in Kentucky. I live in Manitoba Canada. Completely different climates. We feed hay 7-8 months of the year. Doubt you have to do that.

Sounds like you really got your plate full. I can't imagine feeding hay that long. Here, maybe 90 days or less sometimes.. I used to have horses and they would chew on posts sometimes but I have never heard of cows that much doing it. i have to watch calves sometimes around tractors because they seem to want to chew on everything......I guess that is just from nursing......everything is a teat to them.
Question.....what is your soil like there? I would tend to think it would be pretty fertile....maybe from all the glaciers in the past or am I wrong there?

[dcara]

Someone may have already said this, if so, here it is again.

Have your forage and/or hay tested to determine what quantity of what minerals you need to be feeding for the different animals (i.e yeairlings, heifers, bred, etc). Many mineral suppliers will do this test for free if you buy their mineral. Otherwise the test cost about $30.

[djinwa]

My point in all this I guess is that I think we often times create imbalances by applying NPK especially N, while our fields are nice and dark from the N and growing a little faster .....only when it rains. We are destroying the humus
and life of the soil. Therefore we have all this lush pasture we have artificially created, but then on the other hand we see all these problems. my soil tests show that I am a little low on Phosphorus but it is was like that six years ago. I would have thought by now it should all be depleted but nothing has changed.
The more we can stay natural and sustainable the less imbalances we are going to create my farm isn't the best land in the country but I don't let it get out of balance.This is just my humble opinion.

The problem with being natural is that it isn't natural to ship off a hundred calves a year that are loaded with minerals taken out of the soil, and you don't get them back. Maybe if you could get the sewage from the consumers returned, it would be more natural.

Seems that if you keep sending away your soil nutrients, eventually they'll need replaced. One reason I buy hay is to rob my neighbor's land to improve mine.

[hooknline]

My point in all this I guess is that I think we often times create imbalances by applying NPK especially N, while our fields are nice and dark from the N and growing a little faster .....only when it rains. We are destroying the humus
and life of the soil. Therefore we have all this lush pasture we have artificially created, but then on the other hand we see all these problems. my soil tests show that I am a little low on Phosphorus but it is was like that six years ago. I would have thought by now it should all be depleted but nothing has changed.
The more we can stay natural and sustainable the less imbalances we are going to create my farm isn't the best land in the country but I don't let it get out of balance.This is just my humble opinion.

The problem with being natural is that it isn't natural to ship off a hundred calves a year that are loaded with minerals taken out of the soil, and you don't get them back. Maybe if you could get the sewage from the consumers returned, it would be more natural.

Seems that if you keep sending away your soil nutrients, eventually they'll need replaced. One reason I buy hay is to rob my neighbor's land to improve mine.

Yep

[fatcattle]

I have a friend and neighbor who quit using mineral about a year ago. He ai'd 100 heifers about a month ago, I did 150. We ran both sets through my pens and chute. All cattle received the same shots, were treated the exact same way. Needles were changed every 15 head. He got busy in hay season and didn't check them as well as he could have. Last week I helped him treat 9 with foot rot and 13 with injection site infections. The infections ranged in size from baseball to one the size of a basketball. I have no injection infections and one case of foot rot. Both sets of cattle are on similiar pasture. The only difference is I have kept out mineral and he hasn't. To me it makes mineral look cheap.

[Banjo]

I'll have to say that is the first time I have heard that argument. The hay taking off I can understand a little bit, but never heard of livestock walking it off. On the surface it seems plausible, but they say....people in the know...universties etc. that livestock return a high % of their nutrient intake back thru the manure and urine.
Overgrazing!!!!! is what destroys pasture and I have done my share of it over the years. Pulse grazing and then letting the pasture rest/recover for a certain length of time is what builds organic matter/and carbon in the soil.
What did farmers do for the thousands of years before water soluble ferilizers came along?

Question for anyone who wants to answer it: If a plants roots has as much mass below ground as above ground what have you lost? Nothing. When that same plants roots die back/pruned after being grazed and start growing back again what have you gained? Organic matter from the old roots. What happens when that cow can continually go back over that short 2 or 3 inch grass? It will have a shallow root system to match the top, which is very vulnerable to dry weather.
I don't know everything, but this much I know.

[3waycross]

I have a friend and neighbor who quit using mineral about a year ago. He ai'd 100 heifers about a month ago, I did 150. We ran both sets through my pens and chute. All cattle received the same shots, were treated the exact same way. Needles were changed every 15 head. He got busy in hay season and didn't check them as well as he could have. Last week I helped him treat 9 with foot rot and 13 with injection site infections. The infections ranged in size from baseball to one the size of a basketball. I have no injection infections and one case of foot rot. Both sets of cattle are on similiar pasture. The only difference is I have kept out mineral and he hasn't. To me it makes mineral look cheap.

I would be very interested to know how they conceived to the AI.

[fatcattle]

I have a friend and neighbor who quit using mineral about a year ago. He ai'd 100 heifers about a month ago, I did 150. We ran both sets through my pens and chute. All cattle received the same shots, were treated the exact same way. Needles were changed every 15 head. He got busy in hay season and didn't check them as well as he could have. Last week I helped him treat 9 with foot rot and 13 with injection site infections. The infections ranged in size from baseball to one the size of a basketball. I have no injection infections and one case of foot rot. Both sets of cattle are on similiar pasture. The only difference is I have kept out mineral and he hasn't. To me it makes mineral look cheap.

I would be very interested to know how they conceived to the AI.

I will keep you posted. I'm hoping that he comes out all right.

[hooknline]

I'll have to say that is the first time I have heard that argument. The hay taking off I can understand a little bit, but never heard of livestock walking it off. On the surface it seems plausible, but they say....people in the know...universties etc. that livestock return a high % of their nutrient intake back thru the manure and urine.
Overgrazing!!!!! is what destroys pasture and I have done my share of it over the years. Pulse grazing and then letting the pasture rest/recover for a certain length of time is what builds organic matter/and carbon in the soil.
What did farmers do for the thousands of years before water soluble ferilizers came along?

Question for anyone who wants to answer it: If a plants roots has as much mass below ground as above ground what have you lost? Nothing. When that same plants roots die back/pruned after being grazed and start growing back again what have you gained? Organic matter from the old roots. What happens when that cow can continually go back over that short 2 or 3 inch grass? It will have a shallow root system to match the top, which is very vulnerable to dry weather.
I don't know everything, but this much I know.

Tell you what. Stock your land to normal capacity. Don't feed anything, don't add mineral, don't bring in any hay that hasn't been cut off the same land, and don't fertilize. Them sell all your calf
Crop, or whatever bovine product you sell.
Do that for 10 years and tell us your overall production numbers for 10 years running.
I'd bet youre bottom line drops very year