Can cattle eat to much mineral

Cattle problems.
cjmc
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Re: Can cattle eat to much mineral

Post by cjmc » Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:58 pm

Aaron wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:02 pm
Redgully wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:53 pm
I want to set my minerals up like this, has anyone on here tried this system?

It is interesting. Nutritionists say it's BS - cattle don't know what they are short of.

I would like to see a nutritionist do it with a field full of grass fed steers over summer and do blood testing and liver biopsies after they are slaughtered. That would tell the truth.
They already did the research on this years ago. Cattle have no nutritional wisdom except for salt.



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Re: Can cattle eat to much mineral

Post by greggy » Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:30 pm

Prob similar to us ......

What did they find with salt ? They wont over consume ?

I seem to recall that often salt is offered alone, it would cut down on the mix intake if a craving for salt......which is why I think op had them going for it with new mineral

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Re: Can cattle eat to much mineral

Post by Silver » Tue Dec 31, 2019 5:22 pm

cjmc wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:54 pm
Aaron wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:51 pm
Silver wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:32 pm


One interesting thing he said was that up in the north where people feed over winter that you can get all the mineral you need into them over the winter where it's easier to monitor and control, and they store it and can then get through the summer without becoming deficient.
You must have very balanced soil profile then. No way would you get away with such a stunt here. The selenium deficiency here would kill your calves and the copper deficiency would give you up to 50% open.

The copper deficiency here is so bad that we feed more copper in our trace mineral salt than almost anywhere else. Here we buy the brown bag 952 Hi-Boot Windsor Salt which has 5,000 ppm copper to begin with and then add additional copper sulphate to a bag. It is the only way to maintain acceptable copper values in the livers here. One neighbor spent about $10,000 in nutritionist/veterinary consulting, liver biopsies and custom mineral formulations before they determined how badly the copper was being tied up by molybdenum. He is about 10,000 ppm for copper in his mineral/salt formulation, which most nutritionists would say would heavily poison a cow, but that just keeps his liver copper levels acceptable. He was consistently having 40-50% open cows and cows randomly getting very weak and dying before they figured it out.
What source of copper are they using? That's an insanely high level of copper.
As I understand it, someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but if you have antagonists (in this case moly) the easiest way around it is to feed amino acid complexes. This avoids the copper being tied up by the moly. But feeding extra units of copper as a sulfate may be cheaper, I don't know.

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Re: Can cattle eat to much mineral

Post by Redgully » Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:27 pm

cjmc wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:58 pm
Aaron wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:02 pm
Redgully wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:53 pm
I want to set my minerals up like this, has anyone on here tried this system?

It is interesting. Nutritionists say it's BS - cattle don't know what they are short of.

I would like to see a nutritionist do it with a field full of grass fed steers over summer and do blood testing and liver biopsies after they are slaughtered. That would tell the truth.
They already did the research on this years ago. Cattle have no nutritional wisdom except for salt.
Did you have a link to the study. This subject interests me a lot. I talked to a farmer a couple of years ago who had a set up where cows could select minerals and he reckons it made a massive difference to his cattle. But i have also heard you can get to toxic levels with some herds.

cjmc
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Re: Can cattle eat to much mineral

Post by cjmc » Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:36 pm

Silver wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 5:22 pm
cjmc wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:54 pm
Aaron wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:51 pm


You must have very balanced soil profile then. No way would you get away with such a stunt here. The selenium deficiency here would kill your calves and the copper deficiency would give you up to 50% open.

The copper deficiency here is so bad that we feed more copper in our trace mineral salt than almost anywhere else. Here we buy the brown bag 952 Hi-Boot Windsor Salt which has 5,000 ppm copper to begin with and then add additional copper sulphate to a bag. It is the only way to maintain acceptable copper values in the livers here. One neighbor spent about $10,000 in nutritionist/veterinary consulting, liver biopsies and custom mineral formulations before they determined how badly the copper was being tied up by molybdenum. He is about 10,000 ppm for copper in his mineral/salt formulation, which most nutritionists would say would heavily poison a cow, but that just keeps his liver copper levels acceptable. He was consistently having 40-50% open cows and cows randomly getting very weak and dying before they figured it out.
What source of copper are they using? That's an insanely high level of copper.
As I understand it, someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but if you have antagonists (in this case moly) the easiest way around it is to feed amino acid complexes. This avoids the copper being tied up by the moly. But feeding extra units of copper as a sulfate may be cheaper, I don't know.
That would be correct. Basic copper chloride, sometimes called hydroxy copper under the trade name Intellibond sold by micronutrients would be a big supplier of it to feed companies. It will preform similar to the amino acid complexes at a cost only slightly higher than copper sulfate.

There is a recommend copper to moly ratio nutritionist would reference when formulating a custom mineral where moly is a big issue. I believe its 5:1, but don't quote me on that.

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Re: Can cattle eat to much mineral

Post by cjmc » Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:27 pm

Redgully wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:27 pm
cjmc wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:58 pm
Aaron wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:02 pm


It is interesting. Nutritionists say it's BS - cattle don't know what they are short of.

I would like to see a nutritionist do it with a field full of grass fed steers over summer and do blood testing and liver biopsies after they are slaughtered. That would tell the truth.
They already did the research on this years ago. Cattle have no nutritional wisdom except for salt.
Did you have a link to the study. This subject interests me a lot. I talked to a farmer a couple of years ago who had a set up where cows could select minerals and he reckons it made a massive difference to his cattle. But i have also heard you can get to toxic levels with some herds.
As with any subject that has been study I'm sure there is more than one study out there.
But here is one where they just randomly ate it (hope this link works it's a pdf). You can Google "cafeteria mineral cattle" and start reading the studies.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... ngRbcTTG8U

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Re: Can cattle eat to much mineral

Post by Redgully » Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:14 pm

cjmc wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:27 pm
Redgully wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:27 pm
cjmc wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:58 pm


They already did the research on this years ago. Cattle have no nutritional wisdom except for salt.
Did you have a link to the study. This subject interests me a lot. I talked to a farmer a couple of years ago who had a set up where cows could select minerals and he reckons it made a massive difference to his cattle. But i have also heard you can get to toxic levels with some herds.
As with any subject that has been study I'm sure there is more than one study out there.
But here is one where they just randomly ate it (hope this link works it's a pdf). You can Google "cafeteria mineral cattle" and start reading the studies.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... ngRbcTTG8U
Thanks for that, not the most comprehensive study but a good starting point. Knowing the right words to search helps a lot.

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Re: Can cattle eat to much mineral

Post by Redgully » Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:56 pm

Did a couple of hours reading different accounts and studies on the subject just now. In summary there are pretty much two trains of thought, cows know what they need, and cows don't know what they need! There are people who swear by the cafeteria type minerals and others who think it did nothing. My general view at this point is it may have a place if there is a major deficiency but pretty much a waste of time and money on todays farms with the premixes available. Of most note and probably the most telling tale is that 99% who trial the cafeteria style end up back using premixed minerals.

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