Johne's?

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Johne's?

Post by TCRanch » Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:38 pm

Anyone ever had a cow or bull with Johne's? That you know of? Helped my friend take in one of her bulls to the vet today and won't have a definitive answer for a while, pending the results of blood & fecal tests. He's a 3 year old Gelbvich (registered) and has lost a lot of condition recently but initially she figured he was just keeping active doing his job, no other symptoms, eating fine. Early this week she noticed he had diarrhea. Was able to take his temp in the pasture & it was normal, hand fed him Tri Pectate boluses but he wouldn't eat Sustain. Diarrhea got worse & segued into total, vile liquid. He's still eating but not as much and he's drooling a little, losing weight rapidly. His brisket isn't really swollen but looks out of proportion with the rest of his body; from behind (not looking south) he looks like a cow with a BCS 3.

Today his temp is up to 105 but vet found no signs of pneumonia, he has some sort of infection but as of now unable to identify the source. Hardware and Johne's are the 2 most likely possibilities so treated with Zuprevo, Sustain, gave him a magnet, drew blood & took fecal samples.

Any other possibilities you can think of?



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Re: Johne's?

Post by Buck Randall » Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:19 pm

Cattle with Johne's don't usually get a fever, and he's pretty young to be showing clinical signs.

It's probably hardware or some other form of peritonitis.

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Re: Johne's?

Post by TCRanch » Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:35 pm

Buck Randall wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:19 pm
Cattle with Johne's don't usually get a fever, and he's pretty young to be showing clinical signs.

It's probably hardware or some other form of peritonitis.
Vet said a temp is unusual with Johne's, maybe a secondary infection.

Unfortunately I've had my share of hardware and now every cow, bull & retained heifer gets a magnet. Although "hardware" is subjective & can be from essentially any sharp object (shard of glass, part of a beer can, honey locust thorn, broken pvc pipe, etc) and rare but possible for the magnet to pass. Danged if I didn't lose a great cow to it last year that had a magnet. That said, I've never had one with diarrhea; quite the opposite.

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Re: Johne's?

Post by 76 Bar » Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:36 pm

Anaplasmosis? Symptoms aren't always text book in younger animals and if the DVM isn't familiar with the disease can be overlooked.

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Re: Johne's?

Post by TCRanch » Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:49 pm

76 Bar wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:36 pm
Anaplasmosis? Symptoms aren't always text book in younger animals and if the DVM isn't familiar with the disease can be overlooked.
The drooling made me think of Anaplas because his mouth checked out fine (no sores, etc). BUT his mouth checked out fine, nice pink gums and no pale or yellowish eyes. He's actually the vet that diagnosed our one & thankfully only case of Anaplas (and yes, that we know of). This is tick season but shockingly not as bad as anticipated with all the rain. Yet!

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Re: Johne's?

Post by ALACOWMAN » Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:56 pm

I'm betting all the rain was the source of what ails him..
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Re: Johne's?

Post by TCRanch » Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:10 pm

ALACOWMAN wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:56 pm
I'm betting all the rain was the source of what ails him..
Oooh! None of us even considered that. Lots of runoff & contamination.

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Re: Johne's?

Post by Buck Randall » Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:23 pm

TCRanch wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:35 pm
That said, I've never had one with diarrhea; quite the opposite.
I've seen some of both. I think it has a lot to do with what type of object you're dealing with and where it migrates after it perforates the stomach. If it pokes through the reticulum and is irritating the membrane around the heart, you get the "hardware cow" with an arched back and dry manure. If it pokes through somewhere else and floats around the abdomen, you can get peritonitis with diarrhea.
I once saw the aftermath of a Mountain Dew can through a TMR mixer. The farm had a handful of cows with symptoms like this bull. Aluminum and plastic won't settle down and get walled off like nails will.

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Re: Johne's?

Post by TCRanch » Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:04 pm

Buck Randall wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:23 pm
TCRanch wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:35 pm
That said, I've never had one with diarrhea; quite the opposite.
I've seen some of both. I think it has a lot to do with what type of object you're dealing with and where it migrates after it perforates the stomach. If it pokes through the reticulum and is irritating the membrane around the heart, you get the "hardware cow" with an arched back and dry manure. If it pokes through somewhere else and floats around the abdomen, you can get peritonitis with diarrhea.
I once saw the aftermath of a Mountain Dew can through a TMR mixer. The farm had a handful of cows with symptoms like this bull. Aluminum and plastic won't settle down and get walled off like nails will.
I'll be danged. Thanks very much for the info. The majority of hardware we've had were from the original cows we purchased. Were they fed silage with shards of baling wire? Dunno. Or did we just decide early enough on to give them all magnets and that eliminated a lot of problems? We've been hit in the barnyard twice by tornadoes; debris literally over a mile away and it simply is not possible to clean up all the residual mess. Beer bottles & cans thrown into the pasture by drive-by partiers are the bane of my existence. All hardware I've dealt with eventually develop the swollen brisket, sometimes swollen front legs, bottle jaw and yes, the arched back, holding their neck extended for easier air flow, eventual labored breathing. Coronary artery disease.

My friend reminded me of a cow she had about 3 years ago. Had a 3 month old (wild!) calf on her & developed diarrhea, lost appetite, didn't respond to Sustain or antibiotics, temp relatively normal, lost condition rapidly & was dead within a week. Things that make you go Hmmmmm?

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Re: Johne's?

Post by ALACOWMAN » Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:19 pm

That's about right for Johne's to show up on a cow,with a calf on her...when their system is already compromised ...
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Re: Johne's?

Post by Jeanne - Simme Valley » Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:29 pm

Buck Randall wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:19 pm
Cattle with Johne's don't usually get a fever, and he's pretty young to be showing clinical signs.

It's probably hardware or some other form of peritonitis.
I don't know the "normal" timing/signs for a bull, but a female, the normal time to show symptoms is as a 2-year old with her first calf. From what I know, Johne's shows up sometime after 2-yrs old when STRESSED. Being out with cows may be the "stresser". Let us know what the vet determines.
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Re: Johne's?

Post by Buck Randall » Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:20 pm

Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:29 pm
Buck Randall wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:19 pm
Cattle with Johne's don't usually get a fever, and he's pretty young to be showing clinical signs.

It's probably hardware or some other form of peritonitis.
I don't know the "normal" timing/signs for a bull, but a female, the normal time to show symptoms is as a 2-year old with her first calf.
We need a contemplative smiley. Your post made me think for a while, because I've seen a lot of Johne's disease, and I could probably count on one hand the number of two-year-olds I've seen with clinical signs.
I think my experience has been skewed by the fact that nearly all of the Johne's I've seen has been in dairy cows in confinement. Feeding an ionophore slows the development of the disease, so it's pretty common to see cows who test positive continuing well into their 3rd lactation or later without ever getting diarrhea or a bottle jaw. A pastured beef heifer on a forage-only diet would be more susceptible.

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Re: Johne's?

Post by farmerjan » Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:42 pm

We bought a bull at a bull sale. Reputable and tested and all that. Didn't need him but liked him and bought him for a backup. Put him out with some older cows, about 6 months after we got him, and he looked good for about 6 weeks. Then started to lose weight, runny manure and all that. Wormed him but no real improvement. Had the vet come to do some dehorns on some dairyx heifers and preg ck a few odd cows that hadn't been near the barn when we did the last group. Got the bull in, the vet looked, said it did look like Johne's and did blood work. Did not think it was hardware; Advised us to sell him regardless. He went to slaughter. The blood work came back with Johne's titers off the charts. He was not quite 3 yrs old. Don't know where he got it, talked to the purebred farm where we got him. Said that they didn't have any issues but did offer us a discount on another bull at a future date. Have not allowed any cows to calve in that pasture in 2 years so as to not expose them to any effects of the manure from the bull as per the vet's advise. Have not had any other cows have any problems that he was with, he did settle several before he got poor.
So, where did it come from? All the other bulls he was penned with are still here 3 years later, all breeding cows, except one older one that kept jumping fences.
Have not seen any cows get runny, thin or otherwise look like they might have a problem. We keep our cows til they are grandma's if they have decent calves so would notice if there were any problems...except if they don't get bred like they should, they go. Had some problems this past year with pregnancy, but so did nearly every other farmer in this area and tests did not show any problems that could be determined. Mostly the poor washy grass from too much rain. One vet, thinks that it was like they had low level "grass tetany" from low levels of magnesium. We always feed hi-mag in the spring, then switch to a brood cow mix. Who knows. Low cattle prices had us keeping many of these younger cows and put back with the bulls. They will be 6 months behind, calving this fall instead of this past spring. But had very good preg rates, so it may have been condition and health from better fall/winter grass, as opposed to the excessive spring/summer growth.

I for one realize that it usually has a "trigger" but I sure wouldn't discount it in a younger animal.

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Re: Johne's?

Post by TCRanch » Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:52 am

Looks like he's responding to the Sustain; didn't have the projectile diarrhea today although still pretty nasty.

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Re: Johne's?

Post by Jeanne - Simme Valley » Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:51 am

From what I have been told/read, Johnes can only be transmitted to newborn/young calves. You don't have to worry about other cows, mature cattle contracting it from a carrier. The problem is your LAND. Like Jan's vet advised, you don't want to calve on contaminated ground. It gets on the teats and transferred to the calf.
It is/was more of a "dairy" problem, and it was rampantly spread because a farm would use the same bucket in the barn cleaning as they did feeding. Also, workers would walk thru feed bunks and may have contaminated boots. Lots of improvements on all these issues with dairy farms since Johnes has become more commonly known.
It can also be transmitted thru colostrum. Funny, when we started going to extension meetings, all the vets & extension people would always advise us to get some colostrum from a local dairy and freeze it for calving season. That is probably the biggest way beef herds started getting Johnes, because it used to be just a dairy problem.
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