Santa Gertrudis vs. 3/8-5/8 Brahma/Shorthorn.

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Santa Gertrudis vs. 3/8-5/8 Brahma/Shorthorn.

Post by 85Baines » Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:03 pm

As I understand it, Santa Gertrudis are 3/8 Brahma and 5/8 Shorthorn, with maybe a little dairy cow thrown in there. The book was closed about 70 years or so ago, so you can't create new SG's from breeding Brahmas and Shorthorn, like you can Brangus. So my question is: what is the advantage of using SG over cattle that are not SG, but are 3/8 Brahma and 5/8 Shorthorn, if the Brahmas and Shorthorns are well bred cattle?

It is my guess that all you gain from using Santa Gertrudis is more uniformity, but you would surely lose some hybrid vigor, since the Santa Gertrudis are necessarily all fairly closely related compared to a fresh 3/8s--5/8s Brahma/Shorthorn cross.

I have the same question for Beefmaster cattle. I understand they are half Brahma, a quarter Hereford and a quarter Shorthorn, and again the stud book has been closed off for several decades. Wouldn't you do better to get the same mixture of breeds that are not line bred like the Beefmaster? In addition to more hybrid vigor, maybe they've made some improvements in those 3 breeds since the Beefmaster was concocted.

Or am I missing something?



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Re: Santa Gertrudis vs. 3/8-5/8 Brahma/Shorthorn.

Post by BC » Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:53 am

85Baines wrote:As I understand it, Santa Gertrudis are 3/8 Brahma and 5/8 Shorthorn, with maybe a little dairy cow thrown in there. The book was closed about 70 years or so ago, so you can't create new SG's from breeding Brahmas and Shorthorn, like you can Brangus. So my question is: what is the advantage of using SG over cattle that are not SG, but are 3/8 Brahma and 5/8 Shorthorn, if the Brahmas and Shorthorns are well bred cattle?

It is my guess that all you gain from using Santa Gertrudis is more uniformity, but you would surely lose some hybrid vigor, since the Santa Gertrudis are necessarily all fairly closely related compared to a fresh 3/8s--5/8s Brahma/Shorthorn cross.

Or am I missing something?

First off - Welcome to Cattle Today! I cannot answer the question on how the Beefmaster association handles their herd book, but can tell you the Santa Gertrudis breed has an open herd book. Founding fathers of the Santa Gertrudis breed and SGBI were visionary in their inclusion in the breed association constitution of the mandate that the herdbook forever remain open to the inclusion of new genetics, providing the basis for an ongoing grading-up program still being utilized today.They allow a grading up program. About 20 years ago, SGBI approved a project where Santa Getrudis could be re-invented using the best Shorthorn and Brahman genetics available. Here is a link to read more on it - http://cattletoday.com/archive/2008/March/CT1484.shtml

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Re: Santa Gertrudis vs. 3/8-5/8 Brahma/Shorthorn.

Post by ALACOWMAN » Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:39 am

I'm not a expert on BM.. But at one time you could breed a
Herd up to beefmaster, if I where to go strait BM I would use foundation type sires...
someone said I should follow my dreams,,so I went back to bed...

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Re: Santa Gertrudis vs. 3/8-5/8 Brahma/Shorthorn.

Post by Lucky_P » Sat Jun 13, 2015 1:08 pm

I know some of my clients, back in the 1980s were 'breeding up' to purebred Beefmaster... black BMs aren't new to me... one of the best old high-percentage BM cows I ever saw belonged to one of my clients, and she was black.
Thought I'd seen something in print recently where King Ranch was using some newer Shorthorn genetics (like some of the Waukaru bulls, among others) to infuse some newer Shorthorn genetics into the breed...

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Re: Santa Gertrudis vs. 3/8-5/8 Brahma/Shorthorn.

Post by wacocowboy » Sat Jun 13, 2015 2:44 pm

You can breed up Beefmaster.
Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there. - Will Rogers

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Re: Santa Gertrudis vs. 3/8-5/8 Brahma/Shorthorn.

Post by ALACOWMAN » Sat Jun 13, 2015 6:04 pm

[quote="Lucky_P"]I know some of my clients, back in the 1980s were 'breeding up' to purebred Beefmaster... There were a lot of cattlemen here doing just that..alot of Brahman cross cows were used in the breeding up program...especially gerts who were losing popularity around that time..
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Re: Santa Gertrudis vs. 3/8-5/8 Brahma/Shorthorn.

Post by greybeard » Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:43 pm

Lucky_P wrote:I know some of my clients, back in the 1980s were 'breeding up' to purebred Beefmaster... black BMs aren't new to me... one of the best old high-percentage BM cows I ever saw belonged to one of my clients, and she was black.
Thought I'd seen something in print recently where King Ranch was using some newer Shorthorn genetics (like some of the Waukaru bulls, among others) to infuse some newer Shorthorn genetics into the breed...

what part of the 50/25/25 percentile did the black come from?
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Re: Santa Gertrudis vs. 3/8-5/8 Brahma/Shorthorn.

Post by houstoncutter » Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:59 pm

greybeard wrote:
Lucky_P wrote:I know some of my clients, back in the 1980s were 'breeding up' to purebred Beefmaster... black BMs aren't new to me... one of the best old high-percentage BM cows I ever saw belonged to one of my clients, and she was black.
Thought I'd seen something in print recently where King Ranch was using some newer Shorthorn genetics (like some of the Waukaru bulls, among others) to infuse some newer Shorthorn genetics into the breed...

what part of the 50/25/25 percentile did the black come from?


Dag nabit GB get on board son, that's that mystery bull that turns em black and makes em grow 4 frame sizes in one breeding. Please don't forget he's also a fullblood! Least ways the American Angus Association says he was :hide:

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Re: Santa Gertrudis vs. 3/8-5/8 Brahma/Shorthorn.

Post by wacocowboy » Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:06 pm

greybeard wrote:
Lucky_P wrote:I know some of my clients, back in the 1980s were 'breeding up' to purebred Beefmaster... black BMs aren't new to me... one of the best old high-percentage BM cows I ever saw belonged to one of my clients, and she was black.
Thought I'd seen something in print recently where King Ranch was using some newer Shorthorn genetics (like some of the Waukaru bulls, among others) to infuse some newer Shorthorn genetics into the breed...

what part of the 50/25/25 percentile did the black come from?


The big mystery lol. I know from the sales I have been to the blacks are not as popular as the other Beefmaster colors.
Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there. - Will Rogers

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Re: Santa Gertrudis vs. 3/8-5/8 Brahma/Shorthorn.

Post by ANAZAZI » Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:35 pm

Now, to actually try to answer the question: Make a Beefmaster today by crossing the foundation breeds will not be even close to what a Beefmaster is. The Beefmaster breed have been culled for any occuring problems for many decades, they have been bred for the six essentials and there is working longevity to be had from the practice of only getting sires out of already proven cows. The three breeds have been selected all this time to become somewhat different from their original status too, although not in the same direction. In what way the breeding and selection of Santa Gertrudis differs from that of the Shorthorn and Brahma I am not sure, but it is likely not the same.
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Re: Santa Gertrudis vs. 3/8-5/8 Brahma/Shorthorn.

Post by Lucky_P » Sun Jun 14, 2015 10:33 am

I don't know where the black came from in ol' 'Flop' the black Beefmaster in my clients' herd... probably an Angus, Brangus, or just old black commercial cow multiple generations back... but she had at least 3 or 4 generations of BM breeding behind her, and, if memory serves correctly, was 'U' classified by the BBU evaluators.
I know, some here will argue that a black-coated Simmental(Gelbvieh, Limousin, Braunvieh, etc.) with an Angus or Holstein cow 8 or more generations back in their pedigree is just a crossbred...but breeds with open herdbooks have moved on, and decided to accept high percentage animals as purebreds. It's not good or bad...it's just what it is, and the cattle never give it a thought...it's a human prejudicial construct.

Agree, however, that 'recreation' of Gerts or BM by doing 'cookbook' breeding to reach 3/5BR-5/8SH or 50BR/25SH/25HH will not necessarily result in the same creature that the King Ranch & Lasater programs created. There was selection for more than just a certain percentage of breed makeup in the development of those breeds.
By the same token, the 'blackening' of the Continental breeds also brought along more than just black hide...along the way, there was also selection for easier calving, more moderate frame size, better marbling, greater tenderness, etc.

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Re: Santa Gertrudis vs. 3/8-5/8 Brahma/Shorthorn.

Post by ALACOWMAN » Sun Jun 14, 2015 12:35 pm

ANAZAZI wrote:Now, to actually try to answer the question: Make a Beefmaster today by crossing the foundation breeds will not be even close to what a Beefmaster is. The Beefmaster breed have been culled for any occuring problems for many decades, they have been bred for the six essentials and there is working longevity to be had from the practice of only getting sires out of already proven cows. The three breeds have been selected all this time to become somewhat different from their original status too, although not in the same direction. In what way the breeding and selection of Santa Gertrudis differs from that of the Shorthorn and Brahma I am not sure, but it is likely not the same.
I'm sure your right, when your locking in a composite with that many breeds involved ...and it seems it's always the ones that you overlook at first, that wind up being what your we're shooting for to begin with...
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Re: Santa Gertrudis vs. 3/8-5/8 Brahma/Shorthorn.

Post by greybeard » Sun Jun 14, 2015 1:57 pm

Lucky_P wrote:By the same token, the 'blackening' of the Continental breeds also brought along more than just black hide...along the way, there was also selection for easier calving, more moderate frame size, better marbling, greater tenderness, etc.

Yeah, kinda like the whole "Registered Black Hereford" thing, when black baldies and super baldies have been around forever. :roll:
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Re: Santa Gertrudis vs. 3/8-5/8 Brahma/Shorthorn.

Post by insurman » Sun Jun 14, 2015 4:03 pm

greybeard wrote:
Lucky_P wrote:I know some of my clients, back in the 1980s were 'breeding up' to purebred Beefmaster... black BMs aren't new to me... one of the best old high-percentage BM cows I ever saw belonged to one of my clients, and she was black.
Thought I'd seen something in print recently where King Ranch was using some newer Shorthorn genetics (like some of the Waukaru bulls, among others) to infuse some newer Shorthorn genetics into the breed...

what part of the 50/25/25 percentile did the black come from?


Good luck figuring that one out.. What is next a black Santa Gertruidis?

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Re: Santa Gertrudis vs. 3/8-5/8 Brahma/Shorthorn.

Post by wacocowboy » Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:16 pm

insurman wrote:
greybeard wrote:
Lucky_P wrote:I know some of my clients, back in the 1980s were 'breeding up' to purebred Beefmaster... black BMs aren't new to me... one of the best old high-percentage BM cows I ever saw belonged to one of my clients, and she was black.
Thought I'd seen something in print recently where King Ranch was using some newer Shorthorn genetics (like some of the Waukaru bulls, among others) to infuse some newer Shorthorn genetics into the breed...

what part of the 50/25/25 percentile did the black come from?


Good luck figuring that one out.. What is next a black Santa Gertruidis?


Now that we have Black Hereford I am waiting for Black Braford
Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there. - Will Rogers

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