Brafords

[bigrob]

I have wondered if there would be a market for the Hereford/Braford cross like there is for the ultrablack. An ultrablack is an Angus/Brangus cross if I'm not mistaken. Is that correct?

[ALACOWMAN]

I have wondered if there would be a market for the Hereford/Braford cross like there is for the ultrablack. An ultrablack is an Angus/Brangus cross if I'm not mistaken. Is that correct?

apparently they aint in Texas

[bigrob]

Do you know anyone who has tried this?

[ALACOWMAN]

Do you know anyone who has tried this?

the braford association use to let you breed the influences up or down,, more hereford for climates farther north are more brahman for the gulfcoast

[midtncattle]

Massey,
You seem to have this cross business pretty well figured out. How is the h vigor from a gert x char? What would you put over a gert x char cow for h vigor kick? I would like the hereford x ger cross, but I fill I will lose lbs based on hereford vs char. Does that sound correct? Trying to figure out the best teminal cross with gerts?

[Massey135]

Massey,
You seem to have this cross business pretty well figured out. How is the h vigor from a gert x char? What would you put over a gert x char cow for h vigor kick? I would like the hereford x ger cross, but I fill I will lose lbs based on hereford vs char. Does that sound correct? Trying to figure out the best teminal cross with gerts?

Personally, for a terminal calf I'd prefer to have the continental influence from the sire as the calf would be 1/2 continental. Continentals tend to have more growth so I'd prefer to inject the growth into the calf instead of into the cow herd.

The Gert is a stabalized composite so while it won't have as much hvigor as the brahman/shorthorn F1, the stabalized composites still possess a considerably amount.

If I had Gert cows- a Charolais or Limosine bull would be the only options I would consider for a terminal calf. The Gert cow is already 3/8 indicus 5/8 english so what do you need to maximize hv?... some Continental blood! There are other Continentls available but the Char and Limi seemed to have specialied in growth more so than some of the other breeds. A half continental x 3/16 brahman x 5/16 british is about a good of feeder calf here in the South that you can get.

If I were retaining heifers- Id put a Shorthorn bull over those Gert cows to try and stabalize the genetics of my calf crop. Your retained heifers would be 3/16 brahman - 13/16 shorthorn. I'd then do the same with these females- cover them with a continental bull for a terminal calf.

[ANAZAZI]

If I were retaining heifers- Id put a Shorthorn bull over those Gert cows to try and stabalize the genetics of my calf crop. Your retained heifers would be 3/16 brahman - 13/16 shorthorn. I'd then do the same with these females- cover them with a continental bull for a terminal calf.

No need to stabilize a commercial cow herd.
The only important result from this "advice." is that it cuts down the hybrid vigour. First and foremost in the shorthorn/gert females, the built in gert heterosis is cut by 50%.
Now a hereford/gert cross cow has more heterosis than a pure gert; it is a much wiser choice than a shorthorn/gert cow.
Let the terminal sire provide the consistency in the calf crop and leave the cows crossbred.

[ALACOWMAN]

If I were retaining heifers- Id put a Shorthorn bull over those Gert cows to try and stabalize the genetics of my calf crop. Your retained heifers would be 3/16 brahman - 13/16 shorthorn. I'd then do the same with these females- cover them with a continental bull for a terminal calf.

No need to stabilize a commercial cow herd.
The only important result from this "advice." is that it cuts down the hybrid vigour. First and foremost in the shorthorn/gert females, the built in gert heterosis is cut by 50%.
Now a hereford/gert cross cow has more heterosis than a pure gert; it is a much wiser choice than a shorthorn/gert cow.Let the terminal sire provide the consistency in the calf crop and leave the cows crossbred.

[Massey135]

If I were retaining heifers- Id put a Shorthorn bull over those Gert cows to try and stabalize the genetics of my calf crop. Your retained heifers would be 3/16 brahman - 13/16 shorthorn. I'd then do the same with these females- cover them with a continental bull for a terminal calf.

No need to stabilize a commercial cow herd.
The only important result from this "advice." is that it cuts down the hybrid vigour. First and foremost in the shorthorn/gert females, the built in gert heterosis is cut by 50%.
Now a hereford/gert cross cow has more heterosis than a pure gert; it is a much wiser choice than a shorthorn/gert cow.Let the terminal sire provide the consistency in the calf crop and leave the cows crossbred.

Show me where a 4 way cross calf ( char x (shorthorn x brahman, hereford)) has more hybrid vigor than a 3 way cross (char x(shorthorn x brahman)

You're right, the hereford x gert cow EXPRESSES more hybrid vigor HERSELF than the shorthorn x gert cow but our concern SHOULD be the hybrid vigor expressed in the calf crop! Hyrbird vigor is maximized at a 3 breed cross- Once you infuse more than 3 breeds, you will experience diminishing returns of hybrid vigor.

There IS a need to stabalize the genetics of the cow herd- that is... stabalized at TWO breeds- not some mongrelized crap shoot! The only way to get a 3 way cross calf, is to have true CROSSBRED cows- that is a cross between TWO breeds.

[ALACOWMAN]

the hereford/gert cross, is a tried and proven cross.. the gert is a breed, sure it was a cross ,,, but its now stable breed... you get the most hybrid vigor from two homozygous parents,,,

[midtncattle]

So gert x hereford ( or gert x angus) with a char bull for terminal cross will give bigger returns then my gert x char if all inputs are equal. That makes since and what I thought. I may just retain some of those gert x hereford heifers.

[ALACOWMAN]

So gert x hereford ( or gert x angus) with a char bull for terminal cross will give bigger returns then my gert x char if all inputs are equal. That makes since and what I thought. I may just retain some of those gert x hereford heifers.

i would'nt think of doing other wise....

[bigrob]

Isn't hybrid vigor somewhat suppressed in a stabilized composite (Santa Gertrudis, Brangus, Braford and so forth)? If so wouldn't the Hereford propose more hybrid vigor for the retained heifers, therefore better mamas, better calves?

[ANAZAZI]

If I were retaining heifers- Id put a Shorthorn bull over those Gert cows to try and stabalize the genetics of my calf crop. Your retained heifers would be 3/16 brahman - 13/16 shorthorn. I'd then do the same with these females- cover them with a continental bull for a terminal calf.

No need to stabilize a commercial cow herd.
The only important result from this "advice." is that it cuts down the hybrid vigour. First and foremost in the shorthorn/gert females, the built in gert heterosis is cut by 50%.
Now a hereford/gert cross cow has more heterosis than a pure gert; it is a much wiser choice than a shorthorn/gert cow.Let the terminal sire provide the consistency in the calf crop and leave the cows crossbred.

Show me where a 4 way cross calf ( char x (shorthorn x brahman, hereford)) has more hybrid vigor than a 3 way cross (char x(shorthorn x brahman)

You're right, the hereford x gert cow EXPRESSES more hybrid vigor HERSELF than the shorthorn x gert cow but our concern SHOULD be the hybrid vigor expressed in the calf crop! Hyrbird vigor is maximized at a 3 breed cross- Once you infuse more than 3 breeds, you will experience diminishing returns of hybrid vigor.

There IS a need to stabalize the genetics of the cow herd- that is... stabalized at TWO breeds- not some mongrelized crap shoot! The only way to get a 3 way cross calf, is to have true CROSSBRED cows- that is a cross between TWO breeds.

First, the scenario I described involves a cross between two breeds santa gertrudis aka gert, and hereford aka herf. A typical 2waycross, an f1 cross if you will.
Then come back with a terminal breed; making a 3way cross. It is not a 4way cross in any sensible way. (The gerts originated as a cross; it was a long time ago, it is now a breed.)

As for 3ways and 4ways, there is equal heterosis in both, the difference is the 4way has less consitency in the calf crop. However; as long as the calves have a purebred father, there is some consistency, for example 50% char 25% herf 16% shorthorn 9% brahma.

An 8waycross has equal heterosis as a 2waycross, but consistency suffers greatly. There is no diminishing heterosis, nor is there more heterosis with 8 than 2 breeds.

And the point of a 3waycross is not to maximize individual heterosis, because it is equally maximized in a 2way cross. The point of a 3way is to maximize the individual heterosis of the calf while maximizing the heterosis of the calfs mother
That is why a third breed is introduced, because otherwise one can not have both max heterosis in the cow and max heterosis in the calf.

In a bottle feeding situation a 2way and a 3way perform the same. Where the calfs mother matter (on the range with her calf) 3way systems outdo 2way systems, simply because heterosis helps the cow to do a good job!

And yet again, trust the terminal sire to provide the consistency needed, it is far cheaper than to keep "stabalized" commercial cows and loose maternal heterosis.

[Massey135]

As for 3ways and 4ways, there is equal heterosis in both, the difference is the 4way has less consitency in the calf crop. However; as long as the calves have a purebred father, there is some consistency, for example 50% char 25% herf 16% shorthorn 9% brahma.

An 8waycross has equal heterosis as a 2waycross, but consistency suffers greatly. There is no diminishing heterosis, nor is there more heterosis with 8 than 2 breeds.


THIS IS NOT TRUE. YOU WILL FIND NOTHING TO SUPPORT THESE CLAIMS.

AFTER 3 CROSSES HYBRID VIGOR DIMINISHES AS A RESULT OF BREED REGRESSION.