Very, Very Old Angus Genetics

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Dap
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Very, Very Old Angus Genetics

Postby Dap » Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:08 am

I was looking at the Octoraro Angus sale catalog. I knew they concentrated on old genetics, primarily Wye animals, but I was amazed at some of the pedigrees. They have a 2 year old bull they use named Ballot 6, who was sired by a bull born in 1954. I followed the pedigree of on the Dam side all the way back to Queen of Ardovie. Reg. #42, DOB 1/1/1836.

Has anyone seen their cattle? Are there some hereford breeders out there doing this type of thing?
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Re: Very, Very Old Angus Genetics

Postby alexfarms » Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:38 am

Dap wrote:I was looking at the Octoraro Angus sale catalog. I knew they concentrated on old genetics, primarily Wye animals, but I was amazed at some of the pedigrees. They have a 2 year old bull they use named Ballot 6, who was sired by a bull born in 1954. I followed the pedigree of on the Dam side all the way back to Queen of Ardovie. Reg. #42, DOB 1/1/1836.

Has anyone seen their cattle? Are there some hereford breeders out there doing this type of thing?


In herefords, Gene Henkel at Fairbury, NE and Nelsons in MN have used this bull:
http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 5A21222E25
Jim Lents in OK has maintained Anxiety 4th Lamplighters, but he hasn't been using alot of old bulls. I have used some 1970s bulls. They can be blended into todays genetics, but most of them will give up some growth. You see other Hereford breeders who have gone back for a cross on some old bull now and then. Proven old bulls have a place.
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Re: Very, Very Old Angus Genetics

Postby Brandonm22 » Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:34 pm

Tom Underwood who sometimes posts here does use some old genetics as well as some of the currently popular stuff.

http://www.underwoodfarms.com/herdsiresFall2006.html

I would like to see some of those Beau Rollo 60 daughters
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Re: Very, Very Old Angus Genetics

Postby greenwillowhereford II » Thu Oct 30, 2008 8:22 pm

Nelsons I believe it is of Minnesota also utilize some old Lamplighter bloodlines, and have bulls that are close descendents of some 1950's models, and their performance is surprisingly contemporary. I started to purchase one with a couple of partners a couple of years ago, but they backed out because both bulls we were considering were scurred.

The Underwood website is quite interesting, and their prices seem very reasonable when one considers the apparent quality.

Just noticed that Alex mentioned Nelsons. The Polled Modest Lamp bull is the one whose grandson we considered....
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Re: Very, Very Old Angus Genetics

Postby greenwillowhereford II » Thu Oct 30, 2008 8:40 pm

Another program which, similar to Jim Lents, has continued to linebreed some older bloodlines is Day Herefords of Roff, OK. Day has gone in a little different direction than Lents, inasmuch as he has focused not only on body type, but also on increasing performance. Most of his cattle are frame 5, but he has basically maintained three family tree branches, one for calving ease specialists (although calving problems are not a problem in any of the branches), one of the frame 5-5.5 that are the top performing and thickest, and one that can give you a tad more frame, perhaps as much as 6. These are Hazlett Turner Ranch Hereford bloodlines, and Day himself has been linebreeding them for over 40 years I believe. You can see a pic of one of his bulls in Herefordsire's Online daughters thread.

His Tcaldo branch probably average 65-70# BW, the Rupert Tone branch and Major Rupert branch are more of an average in the eighties.
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Re: Very, Very Old Angus Genetics

Postby Roadapple » Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:08 pm

Bruce Johnson at www. Evergreen Angus.com also uses older genetics with the Wye line. By the way, which Nelsons are you talking about?
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Re: Very, Very Old Angus Genetics

Postby Oldtimer » Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:44 pm

Cole Creek Ranch is using several bulls sired by the old 60's bulls and one of the tops at this years sale was calves sired by Cole Creek Goldmere 31N 14317526 which is a son of Juanada Goldmere of P J M 5802604 - a 60's bull... I posted a picture of a heifer sired by him on the North Country thread...
Also R R Rito 707 Reg: #5770651 another 60's bull has been brought back by Sinclair- and linebred-- and especially through Rito Legacy 3R9 (which I have a son of that I think may make a good bull)...

Another old bull I'm seeing used a lot more is the Shoshone Viking GD60 Reg: #8805991GDF Bull - a 70's bull... Much of this is because folks running cattle are finding that most the "bigger, better, faster" high carcass cattle don't make the maternal cattle that is what made angus so popular....Those and the Wye and Shoshone cattle of Larry Leonards- along with the Deboo's cattle (Diamond D Angus) have gained popularity...
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Re: Very, Very Old Angus Genetics

Postby novatech » Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:54 am

By going back in pedigrees one can find that certain genetic traits came from particular bulls. These bulls can still be used even if the semen is no longer available. By going back through pedigrees count the number of times that particular bull shows up. But there is a trade off. You will also be pulling up some bad traits. The line breeders recognized these bad traits and breed them out using line-breeding. Strengthening the good traits and culling those bad traits out. Just by going back to the same bull that a line-breeder used is not necessarily a good thing.
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Re: Very, Very Old Angus Genetics

Postby greenwillowhereford II » Fri Oct 31, 2008 7:53 pm

Roadapple wrote:Bruce Johnson at www. Evergreen Angus.com also uses older genetics with the Wye line. By the way, which Nelsons are you talking about?

Nelson Polled Herefords, Phil and Will, Tracy, MN.
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Re: Very, Very Old Angus Genetics

Postby kdpihf » Sun Nov 02, 2008 11:26 am

You guys need to get out more often. I have a number of daughters of Jols Eric of Craigie (born in 1966) and Jotham Eric of Craigie (born in 1974) walking the place. The three current herd bulls were 1. sired by the aforementioned Jotham Eric of Craigie out of a Jols Eric daughter, or are straight Wye bulls 2. sired by Cyrus of Wye (born in 1963, sired by imp Prince of Malpas out of a daughter of imp Geordus, out of a daughter of imp Gaird of Dalmeny) or 3. a straight Wye son of the imported George of Swiftbrook (born in 1956). We will be flushing with George of Swiftbrook semen next year to replace bull #3, who is going on 11 years old but still breeding cows in the pasture this fall. Lots of folks don't blindly follow the AI studs lead and are still producing good cattle, whether it be Angus, Shorthorn, Hereford, or a variety of other breeds. Just have to look around a little.
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Re: Very, Very Old Angus Genetics

Postby KNERSIE » Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:16 pm

kdpihf wrote:You guys need to get out more often. I have a number of daughters of Jols Eric of Craigie (born in 1966) and Jotham Eric of Craigie (born in 1974) walking the place. The three current herd bulls were 1. sired by the aforementioned Jotham Eric of Craigie out of a Jols Eric daughter, or are straight Wye bulls 2. sired by Cyrus of Wye (born in 1963, sired by imp Prince of Malpas out of a daughter of imp Geordus, out of a daughter of imp Gaird of Dalmeny) or 3. a straight Wye son of the imported George of Swiftbrook (born in 1956). We will be flushing with George of Swiftbrook semen next year to replace bull #3, who is going on 11 years old but still breeding cows in the pasture this fall. Lots of folks don't blindly follow the AI studs lead and are still producing good cattle, whether it be Angus, Shorthorn, Hereford, or a variety of other breeds. Just have to look around a little.


Do you have photos to share? I am breeding herefords, but any old genetics interests me.
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Re: Very, Very Old Angus Genetics

Postby Tom Underwood » Tue Nov 04, 2008 5:53 pm

Unfortunately, I am not very good at taking pictures. I also will have to work on learning how to upload the ones I have.

I do own a son of Adv Modest Lamp 57 (born 1952) along with Gene Henkel. I also own a daughter of the 57th and have calves that are the result of the mating of the two. I have also used E Beau Perfect (born 1959), HCJ Beau Rollo 60 (born 1962), FHF Beau Rollo 33 (born 1960), among others. I have heard that Tom Robinson started using Rollo 33 again because he reminded him of a descendant he saw at a show, Online 122l.

If anyone has any old Hereford semen (bull sired prior to 1968) that they'd like to sell, please let me know.

My first AI calves to old bulls were born in September 2007. They have been raised on grass only. The carcass data compares favorably to modern genetics, but they are a couple of frame scores smaller and about 100 pounds lighter as yearlings. The old genetics have dramatically more volume than modern genetics, and they are beginning to fatten more on grass than the modern cattle at 14 months.

I have some that I believe have a dominant gene for "no growth." When bred to modern genetics, about three out of four wean at around 300 pounds. One in four will wean at 550+, and look like an extremely deep and meaty steer/heifer at the same or greater weight as the modern gentics. I haven't yet had one that grew in between the no-growth and the growth animals out of that one sire. Obviously, 3 out of 4 calves weaning in the 300's is not commercially viable in a cattle operation.

I only have one E Beau Pefect heifer (born March 2008), but she was among the growthiest and best looking calves out of 100 or so this spring. I also relaly like the few FHF Beau Rollo 33 calves I have. As for HCJ Beau Rollo 60, they are smaller-boned than I would have imagined. They also are a bit short and don't have the volume of the 33rd. I have been using the 60th because his sire was born in 1944 out of a 1930's sire (Beau Perfect 246), and his dam's sire was born in 1947. I am attempting to find genetics that go back and skip the late 1940's through early 1960's with as few generations as possible. I also seem to favor cattle related to Beau Perfect 246.

In another couple of years, I'll know a lot more about the older genetics, but it'll be 10-15 years before I can figure out if it's possible to infuse some of the positive traits of the past to better the seedstock of today.

I also believe in preserving some old bloodlines in case somebody in the future decides they could be useful. The embryo's fortunately the job is easy if the genetics exist. Those breeders that kept semen from the 50's and 60's have preserved some lines that appear to have been completely bred out of modern cattle. I'm having a lot of fun figuring out what those genetics entailed and if there's anything interesting in them to contribute to Herefords.
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Re: Very, Very Old Angus Genetics

Postby greenwillowhereford II » Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:09 pm

Good post, Tom. If I recall correctly, Mr. Henkel told me that his Lamplighter steer calves performed as well in the feedlot as any.

Seems to me that the grass fed beef folks could well use some of these genetics. It also seems to me that you could take the one in four that grow well, and see if you can use them to develop something with the body type that will still grow into at least the 500 pound weaning range.
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Re: Very, Very Old Angus Genetics

Postby kdpihf » Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:16 pm

Image
Image

Photos of two older bulls as requested Knersie. Both linebred to Prince Paul of Barnoldby through his sons George of Swiftbrook and Genkins. I have a son of George of Swiftbrook breeding cows right now. A different type altogether than the angus you find today.

Now, if someone can tell me how to make the photos bigger.

The bull on top is Planter of Craigie, the other is Alexegi of Craigie. They were bred by Ken Clark who grew up on a hereford ranch, got a genetics degree at Iowa State, and was a buyer for the biggest slaughterhouse on the east coast. Jim Lingle, manager at Wye, said Ken Clark could tell more about an animal with its hide on than most folks could with it hanging on the rail. The angus database has these bulls as well as other bulls we have in the tank like Black Lode of Craigie, Black Chang of Craigie, Alezus of Craigie, Jols Eric of Craigie, Jotham Eric of Craigie, George of Swiftbrook and a few others. Note the extent of linebreeding by a true breeder.
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Re: Very, Very Old Angus Genetics

Postby dun » Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:30 am

kdpihf wrote:Image
Image
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