What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of your favorite breed.
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Ebenezer
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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Ebenezer » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:06 am

CreekAngus wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:14 am
gcreekrch wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:57 pm
Nesikep wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:31 pm
Here's another part of that article I liked
You don’t need to worry about that high maintenance issue if you are feeding grain year round! :cowboy:

I wonder if ol’ Brookhill has a stump and a mirror out in the pasture we’re he can preach to convince himself of his extrapolations? :lol: :lol: :lol: :shock: :shock: :shock: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:
High maintenance seedstock, may not be much of an issue, if your market is ok with it. Sounds to me like his customer base is running smaller framed cattle and need Jame’s bulls size and growth abilities. I’m kind of in the same boat, run a bit smaller framed cows and do a limited creep for my young bulls. Sounds like in Kentucky grass is a plenty and there isn’t much concern about a bull withering away, which is something I have to concern myself with. If my bulls were having to cover range, I would consider not even allowing any creep, we got to raise our cattle for the environment they are working in.
In that use, the BH bulls would be terminal type.



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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Ebenezer » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:12 am

Brookhill Angus wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:27 am
The great thing about posting on Cattle Today is that your post lives forever, so I will either be right about Angus or really wrong, and it will be documented so it can be referred to in the future.

As for milk. I may be crazy, but I’ve always been under the impression that cows that excel in that department raise a nice calf. In fact, James Lingle Of Wye Angus said milk was one of the most important things he looked for in a cow. What the heck did he know? Or me for that matter...

As for the hybrid vigor discussion. I will say it again, people are cross breeding all around me, but they aren’t getting the deep bodied, high performance females that I produce.

Recently a client called me and we chatted about his calf crop, he told me that he didn’t pull a single one, the calves have really good growth, and vigor. Big deal you may say, that’s to be expected, right? Here is what I found interesting, after seeing his success, he had some people he knows tell him, you should have used a Balancer or Gelbvieh, the Angus is going to cause you problems. He told me that he had to disagree, the calves were better than most anything he had in the past, when using Gelbvieh. The recommendation to avoid Angus was based on personal preference, not fact, that’s a problem, and he recognized that the advice he was getting was misguided at best. Not to mention his bull has the CAB “Targeting the Brand” logo, which means his Marb and $G are above breed average. Can his other advisers give him a good idea of the carcass traits that their suggestions bring to the table? Are they even DNA tested? Who knows? You guys think I’m only breeding for size but I’m highly focused on carcass and judging from how many of my cattle have the logo, I’m on the right track.

If Angus is in trouble as the Doc proclaims, then I’m prepared to go down with the ship. I think he sounds more Chicken Little than anything. Angus isn’t going anywhere, except maybe up.
We lost interest in GV quickly. I think the outcrossing to Angus was necessary to hold market share and probably saved them in the SE USA. I do not use a lot of opinions to make decisions so that was a smart move to avoid what somebody you met randomly suggested. Wye was a creep feeding operation under Lingle. Creep feeding does a lot for the calf and the cow. Wye is still in business but if you look around you do not see much impact. Might want to ponder on that or if you want a high milk Wye bull find some Fargo semen and see what you think.

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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Ebenezer » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:16 am

Caustic Burno wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:40 am
bball wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:50 am
Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:39 am
In order to get great calves in crossbreeding you have to have quality cows and bull. Breed junk to junk, you will get junk. Maybe a little better junk if you crossbreed - but junk.
BINGO! Well stated Jeanne.
James, lets state a few positives about hybrid vigor given that what Jeanne stated is in play: increased yield, increased growth rate, increased fertility, increased efficiency to name a few of the top characteristics, along with increased size.
You have large, deep, quality Angus cows by all accounts that are producing quality Angus calves with the AI program you are using. That is very effective for the PUREBRED SEEDSTOCK operation you have. No need for you to crossbreed as that is not your goal. However, i promise you as i type this, if i were to take your fine Angus cattle and breed to a quality Hereford bull from mvictordomino, or a QUALITY bull from any of the other non Angus breeders here (dubcharo, red bull breeder, Jeanne, etc not an all inclusive list, just first few non Angus that popped into my head) due to heterosis, those crossbreeds would be genetically superior to their parents in many if not all the above listed characteristics. Of course as a seedstock breeder, that would not serve you, but there are many a commercial cattleman that butters his bread doing just that. As more than one wise cattleman has stated previously, its the only freebie in the cattle business.
Speaking to the the cattle your neighbors are running, that's simple; i suspect they are not starting with cattle that are as high a quality as what your farm is working with. Everyone starts somewhere. It all takes time and effort to improve. Some move forward, some do not.
Hybrid vigor is the cattleman’s free gift from God. Take a F-1 Tiger and terminal 3 breed bull and add 20% of grade beef to the scales. To maximize potential is not equal between all breeds the more diverse genetically between breeds maximizes potential . Hybrid vigor is expressed most in a 3 breed terminal cross after that too many crayons are out of the box. Calf crop consistency and vigor traits start regression.
I'm not arguing but merely stating the obvious. Higher growth from a crossed calf is still requiring more milk, grass or feed to get higher weights. It is good and bad but if the good side works for you, you have the feed, you have a high market for heavy weights, ... then it is real. Crossbreeding does allow to have moderate cows to produce larger calves and that is economical along with all of the benefits you and others mentioned about the crossed brood cow. This is like water off of a duck's back to BH because he can only think big and expensive.

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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by TennesseeTuxedo » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:27 am

I wasn’t asking about culls. I know what they are worth.
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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Ebenezer » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:44 am

TennesseeTuxedo wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:27 am
I wasn’t asking about culls. I know what they are worth.
We just had the discussions going of sorry sale barns in KY and barn prices to compare to high fed registered stock. I do not sell on CT.

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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Caustic Burno » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:49 am

Ebenezer wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:16 am
Caustic Burno wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:40 am
bball wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:50 am


BINGO! Well stated Jeanne.
James, lets state a few positives about hybrid vigor given that what Jeanne stated is in play: increased yield, increased growth rate, increased fertility, increased efficiency to name a few of the top characteristics, along with increased size.
You have large, deep, quality Angus cows by all accounts that are producing quality Angus calves with the AI program you are using. That is very effective for the PUREBRED SEEDSTOCK operation you have. No need for you to crossbreed as that is not your goal. However, i promise you as i type this, if i were to take your fine Angus cattle and breed to a quality Hereford bull from mvictordomino, or a QUALITY bull from any of the other non Angus breeders here (dubcharo, red bull breeder, Jeanne, etc not an all inclusive list, just first few non Angus that popped into my head) due to heterosis, those crossbreeds would be genetically superior to their parents in many if not all the above listed characteristics. Of course as a seedstock breeder, that would not serve you, but there are many a commercial cattleman that butters his bread doing just that. As more than one wise cattleman has stated previously, its the only freebie in the cattle business.
Speaking to the the cattle your neighbors are running, that's simple; i suspect they are not starting with cattle that are as high a quality as what your farm is working with. Everyone starts somewhere. It all takes time and effort to improve. Some move forward, some do not.
Hybrid vigor is the cattleman’s free gift from God. Take a F-1 Tiger and terminal 3 breed bull and add 20% of grade beef to the scales. To maximize potential is not equal between all breeds the more diverse genetically between breeds maximizes potential . Hybrid vigor is expressed most in a 3 breed terminal cross after that too many crayons are out of the box. Calf crop consistency and vigor traits start regression.
I'm not arguing but merely stating the obvious. Higher growth from a crossed calf is still requiring more milk, grass or feed to get higher weights. It is good and bad but if the good side works for you, you have the feed, you have a high market for heavy weights, ... then it is real. Crossbreeding does allow to have moderate cows to produce larger calves and that is economical along with all of the benefits you and others mentioned about the crossed brood cow. This is like water off of a duck's back to BH because he can only think big and expensive.
Your arguing against the scientific community here when you think a purebred will out perform the crossbred calf on growth and weight on
less inputs.
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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by TennesseeTuxedo » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:51 am

Ebenezer wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:44 am
TennesseeTuxedo wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:27 am
I wasn’t asking about culls. I know what they are worth.
We just had the discussions going of sorry sale barns in KY and barn prices to compare to high fed registered stock. I do not sell on CT.
So even though I've seen a few of your bulls and I believe your environment and mine are similar therefore your animals should do a good job for me you wouldn't sell me one?
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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Ebenezer » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:53 am

Caustic Burno wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:49 am
Ebenezer wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:16 am
Caustic Burno wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:40 am


Hybrid vigor is the cattleman’s free gift from God. Take a F-1 Tiger and terminal 3 breed bull and add 20% of grade beef to the scales. To maximize potential is not equal between all breeds the more diverse genetically between breeds maximizes potential . Hybrid vigor is expressed most in a 3 breed terminal cross after that too many crayons are out of the box. Calf crop consistency and vigor traits start regression.
I'm not arguing but merely stating the obvious. Higher growth from a crossed calf is still requiring more milk, grass or feed to get higher weights. It is good and bad but if the good side works for you, you have the feed, you have a high market for heavy weights, ... then it is real. Crossbreeding does allow to have moderate cows to produce larger calves and that is economical along with all of the benefits you and others mentioned about the crossed brood cow. This is like water off of a duck's back to BH because he can only think big and expensive.
Your arguing against the scientific community here when you think a purebred will out perform the crossbred calf on growth and weight on
less inputs.
Please re-read. That is not what I said. I did not mention purebreds in the response. Pounds gained require pounds consumed. Been there, done that.

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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Ebenezer » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:55 am

TennesseeTuxedo wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:51 am
Ebenezer wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:44 am
TennesseeTuxedo wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:27 am
I wasn’t asking about culls. I know what they are worth.
We just had the discussions going of sorry sale barns in KY and barn prices to compare to high fed registered stock. I do not sell on CT.
So even though I've seen a few of your bulls and I believe your environment and mine are similar therefore your animals should do a good job for me you wouldn't sell me one?
Most likely, no. I've had offers to ship a load to KY and declined before. But thanks anyway. I'm a local guy.

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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by TennesseeTuxedo » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:01 am

I will suspend disbelief and take you at your word.
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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by NEFarmwife » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:02 am

Many of our commercial cattle around these parts are simangus. We’ve bred so much angus into them that anything we’ve retained the past several years are “mostly” angus now.

I have a small group of replacements just south of my house and I see 3 blaze faces out my window. We’ve actually talked about introducing Sim back into them but we are using a good portion of our cows for PB embryos this year. So maybe next.

We also have our Okies (who are so freakin’ stupid, it’s unbelievable...) whom are southern cattle. A mut mix batch of old cows we bought last fall. We’ll fatten those out but I wish we’d just sell everything from this nightmare. They don’t like our winters and won’t cross water. Maybe they have PTSD from the flooding. Lol. Stupid cows!
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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Bcompton53 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:02 am

Ebenezer wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:53 am
Caustic Burno wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:49 am
Ebenezer wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:16 am

I'm not arguing but merely stating the obvious. Higher growth from a crossed calf is still requiring more milk, grass or feed to get higher weights. It is good and bad but if the good side works for you, you have the feed, you have a high market for heavy weights, ... then it is real. Crossbreeding does allow to have moderate cows to produce larger calves and that is economical along with all of the benefits you and others mentioned about the crossed brood cow. This is like water off of a duck's back to BH because he can only think big and expensive.
Your arguing against the scientific community here when you think a purebred will out perform the crossbred calf on growth and weight on
less inputs.
Please re-read. That is not what I said. I did not mention purebreds in the response. Pounds gained require pounds consumed. Been there, done that.
I'd like to understand this a little better if someone has an easy general description. Everyone says crossbreeding is the free lunch. But then again, you're right, a heavier calf generally got that way by eating more. However, what is the actual effect from that crossbreeding? Is it simply growth rate? Or is it feed efficiency? You see my question? If it's growth rate, then sure why not just use a high WW/YW/YH bull. If it's feed efficiency then those extra pounds may or may not require more intake.
Thoughts?

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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Jeanne - Simme Valley » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:27 am

Yes, you get better weaning weights, but I think the biggest benefit from crossbreeding - is the F1 COW. She is more fertile, healthier, longer lived. Just those 3 traits alone make her a great cow.
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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by CreekAngus » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:40 am

Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:56 am
Brookhill Angus wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:22 pm
Sounds like Dr. Hough has an agenda, but if you guys are happy that’s all that matters.
James, don't even read the WORDS - just look at the charts. These charts are from MARC. Do you even know what/where MARC is? MEAT ANIMAL RESEARCH CENTER, in Nebraska. This is RESEARCH.
I'm fine with how Simmentals are stacking up.
If I had a nickel for every time a feller complains to me about so and so's bulls didn't do anything for his herd and I see a bunch of boner, ruddy, pin hipped cattle......well I'd have a lot of nickels. My Dad one time ran a hereford bull in with his angus (commercial) and ended up with some great baldies. Neighbor complained that he must of got one of the rare "good" bulls from that outfit. It was a good bull on good cattle. I'm starting really slowly on creating a commercial herd (angus) out of my registered stock and when I get a good base of cattle, I will be looking to terminal cross them with Simms.
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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by CreekAngus » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:51 am

Ebenezer wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:06 am
CreekAngus wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:14 am
gcreekrch wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:57 pm


You don’t need to worry about that high maintenance issue if you are feeding grain year round! :cowboy:

I wonder if ol’ Brookhill has a stump and a mirror out in the pasture we’re he can preach to convince himself of his extrapolations? :lol: :lol: :lol: :shock: :shock: :shock: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:
High maintenance seedstock, may not be much of an issue, if your market is ok with it. Sounds to me like his customer base is running smaller framed cattle and need Jame’s bulls size and growth abilities. I’m kind of in the same boat, run a bit smaller framed cows and do a limited creep for my young bulls. Sounds like in Kentucky grass is a plenty and there isn’t much concern about a bull withering away, which is something I have to concern myself with. If my bulls were having to cover range, I would consider not even allowing any creep, we got to raise our cattle for the environment they are working in.
In that use, the BH bulls would be terminal type.
It sounds to me like, yes, Jame's customer base is probably leaning towards terminal. I hate to think of my bulls as terminal, but where I'm at most farms will only retain 5 to 10 heifers (most herds only 20 to 40 cattle) all the rest get weaned at the back of the stock trailer on the way to the sale. And it sounds like in his part of Kentucky it's the same way. I would like to think my customers are keeping every heifer for replacement, but that isn't the deal in this area. I don't breed to terminal though, this is a hobby for me and I breed towards my own agenda, not for any specific market.
A brand ins’t something you earn, it’s something you live up to - John Dutton

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