What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of your favorite breed.
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Bcompton53
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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Bcompton53 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:00 pm

Brookhill Angus wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:30 am
Ok, I get it now, you all have cleared up everything for me, especially the “bless his heart” comment, I know the translation of that phrase.

Here is what I should “theoretically” do with my herd if I’m correct.

First, stick by the textbook. I should head over to the stockyards, or perhaps borrow the neighbor’s bull, even though his pedigree is dubious at best, and take what I’ve built and breed them all to a non Angus bull?

Then I stand back in awe of the explosive, growth and fertility that I have produced.

Then I wonder to myself, how are you ever going to fix this mess you have created, LOL!

I mentioned a while back that I would like, as an experiment to have a Shorthorn/Angus mix commercial group, and several people on here said that I would get “killed” when I went to sell them, even my ABS rep said, get that nonsense out of your head. That told me a lot, because I consider Shorthorns to be very fine cattle.

I think I will stick with my plan, there seems to be a fair amount of interest and demand for Angus, especially fully backgrounded, healthy, and uniform Angus.
Man, I like seeing photos of big cows, just like I like riding in a corvette, even though it's useless on my farm. Also, I learn from the posts, good, bad, different whatever.
BUT, you gotta start figuring out that condemning a proven science, and fellow ranchers, because you are successful at something different, makes NO logical sense. It's the same as me saying, I'm 6'4" tall, so there's no one who can't reach the top shelf at walmart.
Or maybe even, I don't wear a seat belt, and I'm still alive, so seat belts are stupid.

You came in here and said, "I'm successful, therefore other methods aren't effective" and now you're trying to dig yourself out by saying "Then I wonder to myself, how are you ever going to fix this mess you have created, LOL!" You blamed everyone else for being wrong, and now you act like we all started it. :bs:
I made some rookie mistakes when I first joined the forum, but I learned my lesson. and as entertaining as some of these posts become...you might consider doing the same.



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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Bright Raven » Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:01 pm

76 Bar wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:26 am
Having said that, as a breeding stock producer, my buyers prefer purebred.
Enlighten me. Historically the term purebred has been acknowledged to mean sans other breeds in a pedigree. Some breed associations that allow "breeding up" unfortunately opted to bastardize that concept. Curious to know your thoughts on this issue.
The openness of breed Associations such as the American Simmental Association are founded in the bylaws. ASA permits the registration of percentage animals and "breeding up" to Purebred. As to how that influences hybrid vigor or heterosis:

You could make an argument that it might mitigate the potency of heterosis. It would be extremely difficult to quantify much less qualify. My thought is that if the pedigree of the "purebred" sire demonstrates the two breeds have been isolated, the potency of the heterosis is going to be high. Specific to my circumstances, I try to avoid percentage sires. I want my bulls to have a long pedigree going back to only purebred Simmentals. Most of the beef cattle in Kentucky are Angus influenced. My buyers appreciate that putting those purebreds on primarily Angus cows insures a high level of potency in the F1 generation.

I might add, my buyers also appreciate the muscle, bone and growth that Simmental naturally bring to the table.
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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Brookhill Angus » Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:46 pm

Bcompton53 wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:00 pm
Brookhill Angus wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:30 am
Ok, I get it now, you all have cleared up everything for me, especially the “bless his heart” comment, I know the translation of that phrase.

Here is what I should “theoretically” do with my herd if I’m correct.

First, stick by the textbook. I should head over to the stockyards, or perhaps borrow the neighbor’s bull, even though his pedigree is dubious at best, and take what I’ve built and breed them all to a non Angus bull?

Then I stand back in awe of the explosive, growth and fertility that I have produced.

Then I wonder to myself, how are you ever going to fix this mess you have created, LOL!

I mentioned a while back that I would like, as an experiment to have a Shorthorn/Angus mix commercial group, and several people on here said that I would get “killed” when I went to sell them, even my ABS rep said, get that nonsense out of your head. That told me a lot, because I consider Shorthorns to be very fine cattle.

I think I will stick with my plan, there seems to be a fair amount of interest and demand for Angus, especially fully backgrounded, healthy, and uniform Angus.
Man, I like seeing photos of big cows, just like I like riding in a corvette, even though it's useless on my farm. Also, I learn from the posts, good, bad, different whatever.
BUT, you gotta start figuring out that condemning a proven science, and fellow ranchers, because you are successful at something different, makes NO logical sense. It's the same as me saying, I'm 6'4" tall, so there's no one who can't reach the top shelf at walmart.
Or maybe even, I don't wear a seat belt, and I'm still alive, so seat belts are stupid.

You came in here and said, "I'm successful, therefore other methods aren't effective" and now you're trying to dig yourself out by saying "Then I wonder to myself, how are you ever going to fix this mess you have created, LOL!" You blamed everyone else for being wrong, and now you act like we all started it. :bs:
I made some rookie mistakes when I first joined the forum, but I learned my lesson. and as entertaining as some of these posts become...you might consider doing the same.
I'm just saying that I've heard from all the locals how I need to breed to Gelbvieh or Charolais, you name it, ANYTHING but Angus, and if I do that, the results will be amazing. I don't buy it, it's nonsense. They cannot show me anything on their operation that would make me say "I need to change ASAP".

Lately there has been a LOT of complaining about the wretched state of the cattle business, and how the prices are horrible, especially in the Southeast. I have my thoughts on why that is the case, but it would take a whole new thread and it would make a LOT of people on here VERY angry, so I will hold my thoughts on that subject.

Recently I saw an auctioneer post on Facebook the price he obtained on a group of purebred Angus steers. I'm pretty sure it was $1.57 for 9 weights, average weight was around 950 pounds. The sale was in Iowa where they REALLY know cattle, same goes for Nebraska. Compare those prices to Bluegrass and they are laughable, or sad by compare. People are going to have a harder and harder time staying in the business because of "old beliefs" that simply don't produce a product that is in high demand.

While I have had my spats with NEFarmWife, I bet she would be hard-pressed to say that Angus doesn't rule the roost in her area, and I bet they aren't complaining about getting killed when they sell high-quality Angus steers. I bet their checks are fat, like their steers.

I don't know jack squat about NEFarmWife's business, but I would bet you dollars to donuts that she runs circles around the average prices received in the Southeast on mixed breed steers.
"When someone tells you it can't be done, it's more a reflection of their limitations, not yours"

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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Brookhill Angus » Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:56 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:01 pm
76 Bar wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:26 am
Having said that, as a breeding stock producer, my buyers prefer purebred.
Enlighten me. Historically the term purebred has been acknowledged to mean sans other breeds in a pedigree. Some breed associations that allow "breeding up" unfortunately opted to bastardize that concept. Curious to know your thoughts on this issue.
The openness of breed Associations such as the American Simmental Association are founded in the bylaws. ASA permits the registration of percentage animals and "breeding up" to Purebred. As to how that influences hybrid vigor or heterosis:

You could make an argument that it might mitigate the potency of heterosis. It would be extremely difficult to quantify much less qualify. My thought is that if the pedigree of the "purebred" sire demonstrates the two breeds have been isolated, the potency of the heterosis is going to be high. Specific to my circumstances, I try to avoid percentage sires. I want my bulls to have a long pedigree going back to only purebred Simmentals. Most of the beef cattle in Kentucky are Angus influenced. My buyers appreciate that putting those purebreds on primarily Angus cows insures a high level of potency in the F1 generation.

I might add, my buyers also appreciate the muscle, bone and growth that Simmental naturally bring to the table.
SAV America 8018 weaned at 1107 pounds at 205 adjusted. You simply cannot feed an animal to that weight, it takes genetics. He is not crossed with Balancers, Charolais, or whatever, he's Angus. Not many folks I know in Kentucky are weaning a bull off at that weight, nor will they ever achieve that lofty goal.

I don't have time to waste on this, but I bet I could take a cow/bull calf from the yards, and put him up against a President calf from one of my best cows, and it would be no contest. I could feed the mystery bull MORE than I feed President and he would still not catch up. It amazes me that genetics are ignored to the extent they are around here.

You can't turn a person who is 150 pounds as an adult, and suddenly feed him until he looks like The Rock. The same applies to cattle.
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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Brookhill Angus » Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:01 pm

sim.-ang.king wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:29 am
ALACOWMAN wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:44 am
Ebenezer wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:21 am

Quite a bit.
plus the fact he equates ""bigger"" with crossbreeding ...that's usually the end result in a crossbred 3 way system..
That "little" sim-ang steer weighed 1425# when he went to slaughter at a year and a half. That was after being on a holding ration, and pasture for 3 months so he wouldn't be over finished, or get placed in a heavier weight class for the shows. That's a lot of meat on a small frame.

Image
Now my question for you, and it's a serious one. Do you have any idea of the carcass quality of this steer? What is the story on the sire? If I was a buyer for Creekstone or some other outfit like them, what would you be able to tell me about this steer or group of steers that would compel me to pay a premium?

He's a fine animal, and I would like to know more about him.
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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by ALACOWMAN » Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:04 pm

Not that it matters, but shorthorn are too simular in type to get much benefit from crossing with Angus..if I were going in any direction with them it would be Hereford hands down.a Tried and true, no apology cross that will sell anywhere..great cattle.
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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Brookhill Angus » Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:22 pm

ALACOWMAN wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:04 pm
Not that it matters, but shorthorn are too simular in type to get much benefit from crossing with Angus..if I were going in any direction with them it would be Hereford hands down.a Tried and true, no apology cross that will sell anywhere..great cattle.
If we could get any Australians to chime in, they might disagree. I believe that I read where the Angus/Shorthorn cross had the highest carcass scores and brought the highest prices in a test they had down there. I will see if I can find the information. The Aussies breed some very fine cattle from what I've seen.
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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Bcompton53 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:58 pm

ALACOWMAN wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:04 pm
Not that it matters, but shorthorn are too simular in type to get much benefit from crossing with Angus..if I were going in any direction with them it would be Hereford hands down.a Tried and true, no apology cross that will sell anywhere..great cattle.
This was my understanding also. The best advantage can be obtained crossing british breed with continentals. But these are pretty generic statements. Probably depends some on the individual bloodlines/traits.

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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Caustic Burno » Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:00 pm

Bcompton53 wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:58 pm
ALACOWMAN wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:04 pm
Not that it matters, but shorthorn are too simular in type to get much benefit from crossing with Angus..if I were going in any direction with them it would be Hereford hands down.a Tried and true, no apology cross that will sell anywhere..great cattle.
This was my understanding also. The best advantage can be obtained crossing british breed with continentals. But these are pretty generic statements. Probably depends some on the individual bloodlines/traits.

Absolutely the worst cross for hybrid vigor is SH/Angus the most was Hereford/Brahman cross. Lots of old research data out of MSU,UFla and TAMU on the different crosses. Dr. David Riley has a series on improving herd genetics and maximizing hybrid vigor through cross breeding.
There is a lot of good info in here.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.resear ... _Riley/amp
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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Jeanne - Simme Valley » Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:21 pm

James' cattle do NOT need hybrid vigor. His cattle are on the top end of Angus size/weight wise.
Some on here will remember all the ads AAA ran bashing the ELEPHANT breed (Simmentals). Now, the Angus breed is the ELEPHANT breed.

http://www.angus.org/Pub/Newsroom/Relea ... enter.aspx
"In 1984, the Association launched the “Elephant ads,” arguably the most memorable advertising campaign in the history of the cattle industry. The campaign was created by PR director Keith Evans and Bob Watkins of Fletcher-Mayo Associates."
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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Silver » Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:37 pm

I bet I could take a cow/bull calf from the yards, and put him up against a President calf from one of my best cows, and it would be no contest. I could feed the mystery bull MORE than I feed President and he would still not catch up.
That's hopeful thinking. And baseless bragging. Stockyards are where all animals end up, even the very best. You really need to take a trip north, you would return home a very humble individual. Would't that be a breath of fresh air.

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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by NEFarmwife » Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:50 pm

Brookhill Angus wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:46 pm
Bcompton53 wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:00 pm
Brookhill Angus wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:30 am
Ok, I get it now, you all have cleared up everything for me, especially the “bless his heart” comment, I know the translation of that phrase.

Here is what I should “theoretically” do with my herd if I’m correct.

First, stick by the textbook. I should head over to the stockyards, or perhaps borrow the neighbor’s bull, even though his pedigree is dubious at best, and take what I’ve built and breed them all to a non Angus bull?

Then I stand back in awe of the explosive, growth and fertility that I have produced.

Then I wonder to myself, how are you ever going to fix this mess you have created, LOL!

I mentioned a while back that I would like, as an experiment to have a Shorthorn/Angus mix commercial group, and several people on here said that I would get “killed” when I went to sell them, even my ABS rep said, get that nonsense out of your head. That told me a lot, because I consider Shorthorns to be very fine cattle.

I think I will stick with my plan, there seems to be a fair amount of interest and demand for Angus, especially fully backgrounded, healthy, and uniform Angus.
Man, I like seeing photos of big cows, just like I like riding in a corvette, even though it's useless on my farm. Also, I learn from the posts, good, bad, different whatever.
BUT, you gotta start figuring out that condemning a proven science, and fellow ranchers, because you are successful at something different, makes NO logical sense. It's the same as me saying, I'm 6'4" tall, so there's no one who can't reach the top shelf at walmart.
Or maybe even, I don't wear a seat belt, and I'm still alive, so seat belts are stupid.

You came in here and said, "I'm successful, therefore other methods aren't effective" and now you're trying to dig yourself out by saying "Then I wonder to myself, how are you ever going to fix this mess you have created, LOL!" You blamed everyone else for being wrong, and now you act like we all started it. :bs:
I made some rookie mistakes when I first joined the forum, but I learned my lesson. and as entertaining as some of these posts become...you might consider doing the same.
I'm just saying that I've heard from all the locals how I need to breed to Gelbvieh or Charolais, you name it, ANYTHING but Angus, and if I do that, the results will be amazing. I don't buy it, it's nonsense. They cannot show me anything on their operation that would make me say "I need to change ASAP".

Lately there has been a LOT of complaining about the wretched state of the cattle business, and how the prices are horrible, especially in the Southeast. I have my thoughts on why that is the case, but it would take a whole new thread and it would make a LOT of people on here VERY angry, so I will hold my thoughts on that subject.

Recently I saw an auctioneer post on Facebook the price he obtained on a group of purebred Angus steers. I'm pretty sure it was $1.57 for 9 weights, average weight was around 950 pounds. The sale was in Iowa where they REALLY know cattle, same goes for Nebraska. Compare those prices to Bluegrass and they are laughable, or sad by compare. People are going to have a harder and harder time staying in the business because of "old beliefs" that simply don't produce a product that is in high demand.

While I have had my spats with NEFarmWife, I bet she would be hard-pressed to say that Angus doesn't rule the roost in her area, and I bet they aren't complaining about getting killed when they sell high-quality Angus steers. I bet their checks are fat, like their steers.

I don't know jack squat about NEFarmWife's business, but I would bet you dollars to donuts that she runs circles around the average prices received in the Southeast on mixed breed steers.
Actually, that auctioneer sold at the Bassett Livestock Auction (Nebraska) during their BBQ sale. You’re a FOOL not to sell during this event... if you have a group that you can. Same goes for our local auction house. Right after the 4th, people pay top dollar. I wouldn’t be a buyer but I sure wouldn’t mind being a seller.

Below is the link to that sale. His were the 946# yearling steers. Lowery Livestock. And no, I am not related to the Dodds that sold during this sale, to my knowledge.

http://bassettlivestock.com/market-results/

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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Brookhill Angus » Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:30 pm

Silver wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:37 pm
I bet I could take a cow/bull calf from the yards, and put him up against a President calf from one of my best cows, and it would be no contest. I could feed the mystery bull MORE than I feed President and he would still not catch up.
That's hopeful thinking. And baseless bragging. Stockyards are where all animals end up, even the very best. You really need to take a trip north, you would return home a very humble individual. Would't that be a breath of fresh air.
Humble?

Try the stockyards here in my hometown if you want to be humbled.

I doubt a top sire from ABS or ORIgen would bring more than $1800

How is that for humbling?
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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Brookhill Angus » Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:33 pm

Caustic Burno wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:00 pm
Bcompton53 wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:58 pm
ALACOWMAN wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:04 pm
Not that it matters, but shorthorn are too simular in type to get much benefit from crossing with Angus..if I were going in any direction with them it would be Hereford hands down.a Tried and true, no apology cross that will sell anywhere..great cattle.
This was my understanding also. The best advantage can be obtained crossing british breed with continentals. But these are pretty generic statements. Probably depends some on the individual bloodlines/traits.

Absolutely the worst cross for hybrid vigor is SH/Angus the most was Hereford/Brahman cross. Lots of old research data out of MSU,UFla and TAMU on the different crosses. Dr. David Riley has a series on improving herd genetics and maximizing hybrid vigor through cross breeding.
There is a lot of good info in here.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.resear ... _Riley/amp
Really? This points to a different picture.

https://shorthornbeef.com.au/shorthorn- ... ectacular/
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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Ebenezer » Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:36 pm

Brookhill Angus wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:30 pm
Silver wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:37 pm
I bet I could take a cow/bull calf from the yards, and put him up against a President calf from one of my best cows, and it would be no contest. I could feed the mystery bull MORE than I feed President and he would still not catch up.
That's hopeful thinking. And baseless bragging. Stockyards are where all animals end up, even the very best. You really need to take a trip north, you would return home a very humble individual. Would't that be a breath of fresh air.
Humble?

Try the stockyards here in my hometown if you want to be humbled.

I doubt a top sire from ABS or ORIgen would bring more than $1800

How is that for humbling?
Might be a reason - it might be their worth. The king did not know that he had no clothes until he was told. It is common in situations with egos and buddy/buddy is involved.

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