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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:11 am
by Ky hills
Herefords.US wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:07 am
sim.-ang.king wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:02 pm
I always wondered how western Herefords could be on open range for a 100 years with long horns, and Spanish cattle, and magically come out of it as "purebred."
Makes one wonder... :lol:
Obviously, some didn't.

There have been some interesting DNA studies done in recent years. One study shows that Lents Anxiety 4th Herefords compare very closely to the "original Hereford" population in England. The Line 1 herd at Fort Keogh only varies slightly, but the "mainstream" North American Hereford sample greatly varied from its "original" English counterpart.

Some more details, like the majority of that mainstream "departure" occurred after the early/mid 70s.

Additional information is supposed to be in the works, but is slow in coming.

Bottom line, as I understand it, is North American Herefords largely aren't "Hereford" anymore.
I think it naïve to think that a departure couldn't happen. That time frame of the 70's sounds very logical, with the arrival and subsequent rise in popularity of the various continental breeds. I have stated before that a neighbor that is an Angus fanatic vehemently denies any outside influence in Angus stating his theory of breeding long bone to long bone thus giving the fast rise of large framed Angus. In my thinking it would have taken a fairly large population of outliers and a concerted effort to use them to accomplish that and AI in beef wasn't that common place then I don't think. The same individual that made those statements about Angus changing but remaining pure, boasted that Herefords were impure.

Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 5:14 pm
by Jeanne - Simme Valley
Glad to hear some talking about the "impurities". I am well aware of all the "mixing" back in the 70's. Some on here like to bash the Simmental breed because we have other breeds in our pedigrees - but we do it openly & legally LOL LOL
Back then it was inevitable. All the new breeds came in and were "huge" compared to the British breeds. We were getting 200# (or more) heavier weaning weights. That's a lot of money on the table (or NOT on the table).
But, I really don't think many, if any, breeders are sneaking other breeds into their programs now. They have benefited from some "new blood" in the past and it has carried through making some better in the long run. MHO

Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:19 pm
by 76 Bar

Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:02 pm
by Bright Raven
76 Bar wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:19 pm
Trip down memory lane...
https://www.lautnerfarms.com/from-big-t ... the-years/
Very interesting. Amazing how big some of those frames are.

Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:43 am
by Jeanne - Simme Valley
LOL - I had some that were off the frame chart! I can remember we always shaved the bellie bald because you wanted them to APPEAR as tall as possible. :shock:
Not the kind of cattle I like (or liked at the time) but they were what I got paid the most money for. I "LOVE" the style of cattle we are at now.

Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:53 am
by TennesseeTuxedo
Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:43 am
LOL - I had some that were off the frame chart! I can remember we always shaved the bellie bald because you wanted them to APPEAR as tall as possible. :shock:
Not the kind of cattle I like (or liked at the time) but they were what I got paid the most money for. I "LOVE" the style of cattle we are at now.
I agree, I think we’ve found a good balance.

Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:09 am
by Ky hills
TennesseeTuxedo wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:53 am
Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:43 am
LOL - I had some that were off the frame chart! I can remember we always shaved the bellie bald because you wanted them to APPEAR as tall as possible. :shock:
Not the kind of cattle I like (or liked at the time) but they were what I got paid the most money for. I "LOVE" the style of cattle we are at now.
I agree, I think we’ve found a good balance.
Phenotypically, for the most part I agree, however its an ongoing process and I believe that due to some trends less visible that some good things like fertility and efficiency are still being diminished.
One thing is for sure I don't miss the type of cattle that the frame score charts don't go high enough to measure, nor do I want to have the belt buckle equivalent cattle either.

Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:13 pm
by Ebenezer
Ky hills wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:11 am
Herefords.US wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:07 am
sim.-ang.king wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:02 pm
I always wondered how western Herefords could be on open range for a 100 years with long horns, and Spanish cattle, and magically come out of it as "purebred."
Makes one wonder... :lol:
Obviously, some didn't.

There have been some interesting DNA studies done in recent years. One study shows that Lents Anxiety 4th Herefords compare very closely to the "original Hereford" population in England. The Line 1 herd at Fort Keogh only varies slightly, but the "mainstream" North American Hereford sample greatly varied from its "original" English counterpart.

Some more details, like the majority of that mainstream "departure" occurred after the early/mid 70s.

Additional information is supposed to be in the works, but is slow in coming.

Bottom line, as I understand it, is North American Herefords largely aren't "Hereford" anymore.
I think it naïve to think that a departure couldn't happen. That time frame of the 70's sounds very logical, with the arrival and subsequent rise in popularity of the various continental breeds. I have stated before that a neighbor that is an Angus fanatic vehemently denies any outside influence in Angus stating his theory of breeding long bone to long bone thus giving the fast rise of large framed Angus. In my thinking it would have taken a fairly large population of outliers and a concerted effort to use them to accomplish that and AI in beef wasn't that common place then I don't think. The same individual that made those statements about Angus changing but remaining pure, boasted that Herefords were impure.
Angus of that time seemed to pick up a bit more white and some were known to have horns and scurs. Probably due to showers of moon dust and such.

Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:09 pm
by gizmom
I had a friend decide to line-breed a certain genetic line (I am 99% certain of the bull he used but don’t want to call a name because of the 1% uncertainty). Anyway several years into the experiment he had two of the coolest looking black and white calves you have ever seen. Deep with a ton of muscle expression just not Angus lol. That was the end of that experiment, something other than Angus in that woodpile for sure.

Gizmom

Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:41 pm
by ALACOWMAN
Cattle breeding takes too long, and life is too short..

Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:26 pm
by sim.-ang.king
ALACOWMAN wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:41 pm
Cattle breeding takes too long, and life is too short..
...to not crossbreed.



:lol: