What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of your favorite breed.
Post Reply
User avatar
Ky hills
GURU
GURU
Posts: 2068
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:54 pm
Location: Clark County, KY
Has thanked: 347 times
Been thanked: 227 times

Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Ky hills » Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:11 am

Herefords.US wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:07 am
sim.-ang.king wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:02 pm
I always wondered how western Herefords could be on open range for a 100 years with long horns, and Spanish cattle, and magically come out of it as "purebred."
Makes one wonder... :lol:
Obviously, some didn't.

There have been some interesting DNA studies done in recent years. One study shows that Lents Anxiety 4th Herefords compare very closely to the "original Hereford" population in England. The Line 1 herd at Fort Keogh only varies slightly, but the "mainstream" North American Hereford sample greatly varied from its "original" English counterpart.

Some more details, like the majority of that mainstream "departure" occurred after the early/mid 70s.

Additional information is supposed to be in the works, but is slow in coming.

Bottom line, as I understand it, is North American Herefords largely aren't "Hereford" anymore.
I think it naïve to think that a departure couldn't happen. That time frame of the 70's sounds very logical, with the arrival and subsequent rise in popularity of the various continental breeds. I have stated before that a neighbor that is an Angus fanatic vehemently denies any outside influence in Angus stating his theory of breeding long bone to long bone thus giving the fast rise of large framed Angus. In my thinking it would have taken a fairly large population of outliers and a concerted effort to use them to accomplish that and AI in beef wasn't that common place then I don't think. The same individual that made those statements about Angus changing but remaining pure, boasted that Herefords were impure.



User avatar
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Mentor
Mentor
Posts: 10704
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 5:46 am
Location: Central Upstate New York
Has thanked: 428 times
Been thanked: 629 times

Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Jeanne - Simme Valley » Tue Jul 23, 2019 5:14 pm

Glad to hear some talking about the "impurities". I am well aware of all the "mixing" back in the 70's. Some on here like to bash the Simmental breed because we have other breeds in our pedigrees - but we do it openly & legally LOL LOL
Back then it was inevitable. All the new breeds came in and were "huge" compared to the British breeds. We were getting 200# (or more) heavier weaning weights. That's a lot of money on the table (or NOT on the table).
But, I really don't think many, if any, breeders are sneaking other breeds into their programs now. They have benefited from some "new blood" in the past and it has carried through making some better in the long run. MHO
Simme Valley of New York - http://www.SimmeValley.com
"We make a living by what we get,
we make a life by what we give."

76 Bar
Rancher
Rancher
Posts: 746
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 1:17 pm
Location: South Western Oregon
Has thanked: 254 times
Been thanked: 178 times

Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by 76 Bar » Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:19 pm


User avatar
Bright Raven
Mentor
Mentor
Posts: 10098
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:57 pm
Location: Kentucky
Has thanked: 668 times
Been thanked: 686 times

Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Bright Raven » Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:02 pm

76 Bar wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:19 pm
Trip down memory lane...
https://www.lautnerfarms.com/from-big-t ... the-years/
Very interesting. Amazing how big some of those frames are.
"Looking for an honest man".
Diogenes.

User avatar
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Mentor
Mentor
Posts: 10704
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 5:46 am
Location: Central Upstate New York
Has thanked: 428 times
Been thanked: 629 times

Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Jeanne - Simme Valley » Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:43 am

LOL - I had some that were off the frame chart! I can remember we always shaved the bellie bald because you wanted them to APPEAR as tall as possible. :shock:
Not the kind of cattle I like (or liked at the time) but they were what I got paid the most money for. I "LOVE" the style of cattle we are at now.
Simme Valley of New York - http://www.SimmeValley.com
"We make a living by what we get,
we make a life by what we give."

User avatar
TennesseeTuxedo
Mentor
Mentor
Posts: 13942
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 7:49 pm
Location: Live in Franklin, TN farm in Warsaw, KY
Has thanked: 756 times
Been thanked: 686 times

Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by TennesseeTuxedo » Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:53 am

Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:43 am
LOL - I had some that were off the frame chart! I can remember we always shaved the bellie bald because you wanted them to APPEAR as tall as possible. :shock:
Not the kind of cattle I like (or liked at the time) but they were what I got paid the most money for. I "LOVE" the style of cattle we are at now.
I agree, I think we’ve found a good balance.
Making Cattle Today Great Again!
Sometimes you do have to throw out the babies with the bath water.

User avatar
Ky hills
GURU
GURU
Posts: 2068
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:54 pm
Location: Clark County, KY
Has thanked: 347 times
Been thanked: 227 times

Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Ky hills » Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:09 am

TennesseeTuxedo wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:53 am
Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:43 am
LOL - I had some that were off the frame chart! I can remember we always shaved the bellie bald because you wanted them to APPEAR as tall as possible. :shock:
Not the kind of cattle I like (or liked at the time) but they were what I got paid the most money for. I "LOVE" the style of cattle we are at now.
I agree, I think we’ve found a good balance.
Phenotypically, for the most part I agree, however its an ongoing process and I believe that due to some trends less visible that some good things like fertility and efficiency are still being diminished.
One thing is for sure I don't miss the type of cattle that the frame score charts don't go high enough to measure, nor do I want to have the belt buckle equivalent cattle either.

Ebenezer
GURU
GURU
Posts: 1762
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:46 am
Location: Piedmont of SC
Has thanked: 181 times
Been thanked: 377 times

Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Ebenezer » Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:13 pm

Ky hills wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:11 am
Herefords.US wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:07 am
sim.-ang.king wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:02 pm
I always wondered how western Herefords could be on open range for a 100 years with long horns, and Spanish cattle, and magically come out of it as "purebred."
Makes one wonder... :lol:
Obviously, some didn't.

There have been some interesting DNA studies done in recent years. One study shows that Lents Anxiety 4th Herefords compare very closely to the "original Hereford" population in England. The Line 1 herd at Fort Keogh only varies slightly, but the "mainstream" North American Hereford sample greatly varied from its "original" English counterpart.

Some more details, like the majority of that mainstream "departure" occurred after the early/mid 70s.

Additional information is supposed to be in the works, but is slow in coming.

Bottom line, as I understand it, is North American Herefords largely aren't "Hereford" anymore.
I think it naïve to think that a departure couldn't happen. That time frame of the 70's sounds very logical, with the arrival and subsequent rise in popularity of the various continental breeds. I have stated before that a neighbor that is an Angus fanatic vehemently denies any outside influence in Angus stating his theory of breeding long bone to long bone thus giving the fast rise of large framed Angus. In my thinking it would have taken a fairly large population of outliers and a concerted effort to use them to accomplish that and AI in beef wasn't that common place then I don't think. The same individual that made those statements about Angus changing but remaining pure, boasted that Herefords were impure.
Angus of that time seemed to pick up a bit more white and some were known to have horns and scurs. Probably due to showers of moon dust and such.

User avatar
gizmom
GURU
GURU
Posts: 3176
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 2:23 pm
Location: Molino Florida
Has thanked: 140 times
Been thanked: 288 times

Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by gizmom » Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:09 pm

I had a friend decide to line-breed a certain genetic line (I am 99% certain of the bull he used but don’t want to call a name because of the 1% uncertainty). Anyway several years into the experiment he had two of the coolest looking black and white calves you have ever seen. Deep with a ton of muscle expression just not Angus lol. That was the end of that experiment, something other than Angus in that woodpile for sure.

Gizmom
Respect give it to get it!

User avatar
ALACOWMAN
Mentor
Mentor
Posts: 16519
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:16 pm
Location: Alabama the Beautiful
Has thanked: 514 times
Been thanked: 464 times

Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by ALACOWMAN » Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:41 pm

Cattle breeding takes too long, and life is too short..
someone said I should follow my dreams,,so I went back to bed...

User avatar
sim.-ang.king
GURU
GURU
Posts: 5096
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:17 pm
Location: Southern IL
Has thanked: 43 times
Been thanked: 415 times

Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by sim.-ang.king » Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:26 pm

ALACOWMAN wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:41 pm
Cattle breeding takes too long, and life is too short..
...to not crossbreed.



:lol:
Why should I apologize for becoming a monster?
Did anyone apologize for making me one?

Post Reply