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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:34 am
by Angus Rocks
wbvs58 wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:54 am
Angus Rocks wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:22 pm
I won't mention any names but have heard that there are some seedstock Angus producers that have crossbred and papered them as purebred Angus cattle. Just to get the heterosis and performance of the crossbreed.
Well that is a bit of a hollow statement lacking facts. I think you need to name and give a bit of evidence. You are just rumour mongering.

Ken
That may be but the source I heard it from I believe to be reliable but I don't have actual factual proof.

Some of the seedstock producers raise two and three different breeds how do you know they ain't crossing things up to help their numbers some?

Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:10 pm
by Bright Raven
Angus Rocks wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:34 am
wbvs58 wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:54 am
Angus Rocks wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:22 pm
I won't mention any names but have heard that there are some seedstock Angus producers that have crossbred and papered them as purebred Angus cattle. Just to get the heterosis and performance of the crossbreed.
Well that is a bit of a hollow statement lacking facts. I think you need to name and give a bit of evidence. You are just rumour mongering.

Ken
That may be but the source I heard it from I believe to be reliable but I don't have actual factual proof.

Some of the seedstock producers raise two and three different breeds how do you know they ain't crossing things up to help their numbers some?
If they are, they are not only corrupt, they are naive and foolish. If someone does some parentage or pedigree checking and provide documentation that they are misrepresenting their products, their credibility is out the window.

Having said that, what would you cross Angus to that would not be visible to a well trained eye? I know Fire Sweep could tell which of my Simmentals were percentage Angus the first time she saw them. I was impressed. I think the phenotype alone would betray them to a well trained eye.

Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:30 pm
by TennesseeTuxedo
Bright Raven wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:10 pm
Angus Rocks wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:34 am
wbvs58 wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:54 am

Well that is a bit of a hollow statement lacking facts. I think you need to name and give a bit of evidence. You are just rumour mongering.

Ken
That may be but the source I heard it from I believe to be reliable but I don't have actual factual proof.

Some of the seedstock producers raise two and three different breeds how do you know they ain't crossing things up to help their numbers some?
If they are, they are not only corrupt, they are naive and foolish. If someone does some parentage or pedigree checking and provide documentation that they are misrepresenting their products, their credibility is out the window.

Having said that, what would you cross Angus to that would not be visible to a well trained eye? I know Fire Sweep could tell which of my Simmentals were percentage Angus the first time she saw them. I was impressed. I think the phenotype alone would betray them to a well trained eye.
Someone would be able to tell and like you said the evidence would come out eventually and destroy their operation.

Rumor mongering at best.

Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:22 pm
by 76 Bar
What is the genetic input percentage that qualifies/determines an animal to be classified as purebred Simmental? Put another way...how much can you dilute Full Bloods and qualify for Purebred status.
Edited to add, I abhor the bastardization of the long standing terminology of "purebred" and its connotation, i.e. sans blood outside of the breed. Not picking on Simmental's per se. Plenty open herd books do likewise.

Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:38 pm
by ALACOWMAN
87.5 up 12.5 down... :cowboy:

Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:42 pm
by Bright Raven
76 Bar wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:22 pm
What is the genetic input percentage that qualifies/determines an animal to be classified as purebred Simmental? Put another way...how much can you dilute Full Bloods and qualify for Purebred status.
Edited to add, I abhor the bastardization of the long standing terminology of "purebred" and its connotation, i.e. sans blood outside of the breed. Not picking on Simmental's per se. Plenty open herd books do likewise.
As I understand it, in the Amercan Simmental Association, to be Listed on the certificate as "Purebred" they must be bred up to approaching 100% Simmental. That does not equate to them being "Fullbloods". In other words, "Purebreds" can have other "percentages" or breeds in their pedigree. If I remember correctly, they reach Purebred at anything above 7/8 th Simmental. Jeanne or Fire Sweep would know this better than I and can hopefully put the fine tune on my information.

Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:49 pm
by TennesseeTuxedo
I thought we were talking about Angus?

Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:06 pm
by Bright Raven
TennesseeTuxedo wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:49 pm
I thought we were talking about Angus?
I was responding to a question about Simmentals. Is that ok Penguin?

Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:32 pm
by TennesseeTuxedo
Bright Raven wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:06 pm
TennesseeTuxedo wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:49 pm
I thought we were talking about Angus?
I was responding to a question about Simmentals. Is that ok Penguin?
Hijacker

Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:36 pm
by TennesseeTuxedo
We all know there are things lurking in the Simmental woodpile.

Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:49 pm
by Bright Raven
TennesseeTuxedo wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:36 pm
We all know there are things lurking in the Simmental woodpile.
Nothing to hide there. It is an open herd book. Anything 7/8 and under is a percentage registered beast.

Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:00 pm
by Jeanne - Simme Valley
Yup - we (Simmental) openly mix breeds. In the beginning, cattle had to be 15/16 to be considered PUREBRED. Then just the bulls had to be 15/16 - females 7/8. Now all 7/8 are labeled PUREBRED. Must have 5 generations of Fullblood pedigree to be considered FULLBLOOD. Used to be just had to be from imported bloodlines, until they proved the IMPORTED cattle were crossbreds!!! Sneekie people!
I was going to say, people are naive if they don't think there isn't mixed breeds in the Purebred industry from "back in the day". I don't think many would be doing it now with all the DNA testing. Much too easy to be caught now.

Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:09 pm
by southernultrablack
Anyone read the story of Big Mac? The Angus steer that was really a Charlois, shown at the Western Stock Show. I know that he was a steer, but I’d venture a guess and say shady things happen in breeding animals also.

Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:02 pm
by sim.-ang.king
I always wondered how western Herefords could be on open range for a 100 years with long horns, and Spanish cattle, and magically come out of it as "purebred."
Makes one wonder... :lol:

Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:07 am
by Herefords.US
sim.-ang.king wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:02 pm
I always wondered how western Herefords could be on open range for a 100 years with long horns, and Spanish cattle, and magically come out of it as "purebred."
Makes one wonder... :lol:
Obviously, some didn't.

There have been some interesting DNA studies done in recent years. One study shows that Lents Anxiety 4th Herefords compare very closely to the "original Hereford" population in England. The Line 1 herd at Fort Keogh only varies slightly, but the "mainstream" North American Hereford sample greatly varied from its "original" English counterpart.

Some more details, like the majority of that mainstream "departure" occurred after the early/mid 70s.

Additional information is supposed to be in the works, but is slow in coming.

Bottom line, as I understand it, is North American Herefords largely aren't "Hereford" anymore.