What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of your favorite breed.
JWBrahman
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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by JWBrahman » Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:53 am

Brookhill Angus wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:59 am
JWBrahman wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:34 am
This sounds like those discussions where well intentioned adults try to reason with a spoiled, over indulged child that has received a trophy for everything in life.

All of the claims made that purebreed animals are more vigorous have been disproven and refuted in every possible way.

The only thing the original poster has proven is that this individual will never be a profitable rancher. Anybody can spend money. It's even easier when somebody gave it to you...
It takes money to make money. These cows don't AI themselves, they don't knock on the door when they are ready to be bred and then put themselves in the chute. I don't own a set up that automatically bales my hay when I'm sleeping. The list goes on of all the things that are not done for me. What gives you the impression that they are?

In my opinion, poor breeding decisions, even worse management of one's stock and land, not to mention having to acquire land from scratch with a mortgage are problem areas, I don't suffer from those issues.

I'm hearing stories about people raising crops that are hoping that they don't lose everything this year, months behind on equipment payments, barely breaking even in the farm game. I have heard of many people in my county alone that threw in the towel on cattle after this past winter, sold everything, they knew that they couldn't get their hay up and that prices are low on cattle. That's not my situation. If I wanted to I could put several top bulls on my herd (AI sons that I bred myself), sit under a tree drinking lemonade, steer everything in sight, and sell bred heifers with papers. That would be the easy route. I'm not doing easy.

If you are a student of Andrew Carnegie, and others during that period. They had NO MERCY when it came to feeling sorry for people that didn't see the writing on the wall and failed to plan FAR ahead. They saw it more from a Darwinian viewpoint. I'm not that harsh, I have at least a little empathy, but like I said failing to plan is a plan to fail.
Ok, Friedrich Nietzsche said if you fail to plan you plan to fail.

It's not your opinion that proper management is essential to success.

You and a few other posted that hybrid vigor does not exist. Don't change the subject. Please explain how hybrid vigor works, and how your breedings are superior to over 200 years of scientific research and real world experience.



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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Brookhill Angus » Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:30 am

50 years without introducing another breed into our herd, and our cattle look and perform like they do, that should stand for actual evidence.

I know that’s only 1/4 of the time period you want to use as a comparison, but that’s only my herd.

The breed itself is doing quite well from what I can gather, and I think that is without outside breed influence and more than 200 years of breeding Angus to Angus.

I think the “massive benefits” claimed by the pro hybrid vigor folks can definitely be disproven by actual purebred herds that are performing equally if not far better than mixed breed herds.

Angus has had a long time for many of their best traits to falter due to not breeding with another breed, why hasn’t that occurred?
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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Bright Raven » Sat Jul 20, 2019 8:12 am

Brookhill

You continue to mix apples and oranges. No one is knocking your Purebred Angus breeding program or its performance. Heterosis which is also often called hybrid vigor in animal science is a fundamental biological concept. I have never known a case or a paper that attempted to dispute the concept.

When two diverse genetic populations within a species come together and interbreed, it enhances the positive traits in the offspring. This is not a contrary concept to the observation that your herd is performing well. I am totally at the end of my rope at to why you present an argument about the performance of your herd when the topic is hybrid vigor/heterosis which are the same thing.
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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Ky hills » Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:55 am

I'm going to hate myself for commenting about this but oh well, I say a lot useless crap anyway.
To reiterate what others have said no one is denying the performance of BH's Angus. Crossbred is not always a negative term, and does not always mean a low quality animal. Just a hypothetical scenario, as it does not make sense for a successful registered outfit to convert to crossbred unless that is a desired goal for some reason. I would suspect that if BH were to AI an average or low end cow if he has one to a bull of a different breed then the resulting calf just might perform on par or better than its purebred herd mates under the same management. Again just hypothetical, don't want him to slip a cog. May even get a good recipient cow out of the cross. Some of the Hereford folks might slip a cog at this too, but we bred a registered Angus cow to the Hereford THM Durango, I think that is the prefix. She had a heifer calf that is as deep bodied and thick as any cow we have ever had, and was the largest heifer calf weaned that year, literally on par with the bull calves in size. I believe cows like her would make some good recips.
I like crossbred cows, but for my preference in a commercial program, I have come to prefer straight bred or at least high percentage of one breed cows, bred to a bull of a different breed. My reasoning is that the crossbred cows are likely a little more high maintenance, because usually a little bigger and heavier milking.

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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by TennesseeTuxedo » Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:15 am

I’ve been pleased with the calves out of the Limo bull I bought from you Ky hills. They don’t outperform my Hereford or Angus sired counterparts but they hold their own.
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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Bcompton53 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:28 am

Just a question. Has anyone on here actually owned a cow/calf that came from brookhill? I just got to thinking, if they are that good, they should be popular, but at the same time I don’t remember anyone saying “yeah I bought a heifer and I want 10 more just like them. Does anyone have experience with them? I’m guessing brookhill will say “the real cattleman that want REAL growth don’t talk about it on the internet” or something. So I’m looking for comments from others

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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by TennesseeTuxedo » Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:44 am

He won’t sell his heifers or cows. I tried to buy some.

I plan to buy a bull or two in the future but by the time I met him I already had my bulls purchased at Deer Valley Farm.
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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Bright Raven » Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:16 am

Bcompton53 wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:28 am
Just a question. Has anyone on here actually owned a cow/calf that came from brookhill? I just got to thinking, if they are that good, they should be popular, but at the same time I don’t remember anyone saying “yeah I bought a heifer and I want 10 more just like them. Does anyone have experience with them? I’m guessing brookhill will say “the real cattleman that want REAL growth don’t talk about it on the internet” or something. So I’m looking for comments from others
All I can say is that if I were buying an Angus bull, I would go straight over to Brookhill and buy one. I have only been there once but I saw very nice bulls and the prices were reasonable.
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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Brookhill Angus » Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:55 am

Bright Raven wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:16 am
Bcompton53 wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:28 am
Just a question. Has anyone on here actually owned a cow/calf that came from brookhill? I just got to thinking, if they are that good, they should be popular, but at the same time I don’t remember anyone saying “yeah I bought a heifer and I want 10 more just like them. Does anyone have experience with them? I’m guessing brookhill will say “the real cattleman that want REAL growth don’t talk about it on the internet” or something. So I’m looking for comments from others
All I can say is that if I were buying an Angus bull, I would go straight over to Brookhill and buy one. I have only been there once but I saw very nice bulls and the prices were reasonable.
I sincerely appreciate those comments Ron. Many on CT might think you are a cheerleader for me, as well as TT, but on your visit, you nitpicked everything, constructively, you didn't just say "I love em all" I hope members here believe that, because it's true. If anything,TT was more complimentary of the cattle overall and was telling you to lighten up on me. HA!

People who have bought bulls from us, realize after they have used them a year that they got a bargain. They are developed right, they perform, and yes they are priced well for what you are getting in return.
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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Brookhill Angus » Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:59 am

TennesseeTuxedo wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:44 am
He won’t sell his heifers or cows. I tried to buy some.

I plan to buy a bull or two in the future but by the time I met him I already had my bulls purchased at Deer Valley Farm.
TT, I might sell you an AI bred heifer or two in time. Just not right now. I will even deliver them bred with sexed semen with your bull of choice so you can get a 2 for 1 special.

As for the bulls, I'm working on an America for you as we speak, I have about 5-10 cows that would produce what you want. I assume you want an America, with the logo, right?
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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Bright Raven » Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:01 pm

Brookhill Angus wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:55 am
Bright Raven wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:16 am
Bcompton53 wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:28 am
Just a question. Has anyone on here actually owned a cow/calf that came from brookhill? I just got to thinking, if they are that good, they should be popular, but at the same time I don’t remember anyone saying “yeah I bought a heifer and I want 10 more just like them. Does anyone have experience with them? I’m guessing brookhill will say “the real cattleman that want REAL growth don’t talk about it on the internet” or something. So I’m looking for comments from others
All I can say is that if I were buying an Angus bull, I would go straight over to Brookhill and buy one. I have only been there once but I saw very nice bulls and the prices were reasonable.
I sincerely appreciate those comments Ron. Many on CT might think you are a cheerleader for me, as well as TT, but on your visit, you nitpicked everything, constructively, you didn't just say "I love em all" I hope members here believe that, because it's true. If anything,TT was more complimentary of the cattle overall and was telling you to lighten up on me. HA!

People who have bought bulls from us, realize after they have used them a year that they got a bargain. They are developed right, they perform, and yes they are priced well for what you are getting in return.
Very true. TT got seriously irritated with my criticism. You told me to be honest, that is what I did. You have nice cattle and as I have said before, it would be very unfair not to give your father credit. I am close enough in this community to hear things. I have heard very good things about your family.
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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Brookhill Angus » Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:08 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:01 pm
Brookhill Angus wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:55 am
Bright Raven wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:16 am


All I can say is that if I were buying an Angus bull, I would go straight over to Brookhill and buy one. I have only been there once but I saw very nice bulls and the prices were reasonable.
I sincerely appreciate those comments Ron. Many on CT might think you are a cheerleader for me, as well as TT, but on your visit, you nitpicked everything, constructively, you didn't just say "I love em all" I hope members here believe that, because it's true. If anything,TT was more complimentary of the cattle overall and was telling you to lighten up on me. HA!

People who have bought bulls from us, realize after they have used them a year that they got a bargain. They are developed right, they perform, and yes they are priced well for what you are getting in return.
Very true. TT got seriously irritated with my criticism. You told me to be honest, that is what I did. You have nice cattle and as I have said before, it would be very unfair not to give your father credit. I am close enough in this community to hear things. I have heard very good things about your family.
Thanks again Ron, but I'm the black sheep, LOL!

I will say though that you are mistaken on your criticism of the SAV International sons, they are late bloomers, and they are looking better every day. You need to see them in three more months, which is perfect because I would love to have you and TT back for a visit.
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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Angus Rocks » Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:22 pm

I won't mention any names but have heard that there are some seedstock Angus producers that have crossbred and papered them as purebred Angus cattle. Just to get the heterosis and performance of the crossbreed.

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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by wbvs58 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:54 am

Angus Rocks wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:22 pm
I won't mention any names but have heard that there are some seedstock Angus producers that have crossbred and papered them as purebred Angus cattle. Just to get the heterosis and performance of the crossbreed.
Well that is a bit of a hollow statement lacking facts. I think you need to name and give a bit of evidence. You are just rumour mongering.

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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by elkwc » Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:55 am

Angus Rocks wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:22 pm
I won't mention any names but have heard that there are some seedstock Angus producers that have crossbred and papered them as purebred Angus cattle. Just to get the heterosis and performance of the crossbreed.
Same with Herefords.

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