What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Silver » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:30 pm

gcreekrch wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:17 pm
Nesikep wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:06 pm
28 years is impressive, I'd like to get to a point where my average cull age is 10, I'm quite far from that, though I find if they make it to 10 years they make it to 15 quite often.. Oldest I've had is 18, 16 productive calves.

Quite happy here to make bunches of saleable 8, 9 and 10 year old cows as breds . It seems that is about the age that many of them develop bags that require assistance for the calf to get its first meal. I don’t have time for much of that.
It is also good to keep a herd young and salable at all times, it gives an operation options it might not otherwise have.



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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by jscunn » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:17 pm

Brookhill,
What is an intensive BSE? Details please..

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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Brookhill Angus » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:39 pm

jscunn wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:17 pm
Brookhill,
What is an intensive BSE? Details please..
As per BR, and his prior post

“The Veterinarian Brookhill is referencing does a very stringent BSE. I have personally observed other vets perform a BSE. I have only seen one - this vet actually palpate the prostate. I have watched vets look at the semen smear and do a "look see" and call the morphology and count good. This vet has the field of the microscope grid in place and he counts every grid. He does a statistical assessment of morphology. I have gone through the process with him several times. He dots every I and he crosses every T. Some folks will not use him. He is tough on scrotal scores which can vary by 3 centimeters if you don't snug it up. Please don't interpret this to mean that he deliberately fails bulls. But he sure don't give any a free pass.“
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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by jscunn » Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:00 pm

My vet palpates the prostate, he was actually teaching his intern to do it on our last 2 BSEs. My vet also does a grid count. My vet will also watch them move up and down the lane at his vet practice. I guess our bulls pass an super intensive BSE..

Your vet does not do anything special as compared to vets down here, sorry to burst your bubble...

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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Bright Raven » Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:31 pm

jscunn wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:00 pm
My vet palpates the prostate, he was actually teaching his intern to do it on our last 2 BSEs. My vet also does a grid count. My vet will also watch them move up and down the lane at his vet practice. I guess our bulls pass an super intensive BSE..

Your vet does not do anything special as compared to vets down here, sorry to burst your bubble...
The vet Brook is using does a thorough BSE. There is a wide range of practices that meet the criteria for a BSE. Reference the Merck manual on performance of a BSE. The most elaborate BSEs run physiological test on the spermatozoa to determine such properties as the capacity of the spermatozoa to bind with the zona of the ovum, ability of spermatozoa to undergo in vitro capacitation, etc. I don't know of any vets in the field doing that.

My only role in this movie is confirming that when this vet does a BSE, it is thorough and strict.

Just an anecdotal comment. Not all BSEs are performed with the same degree of diligence. Because I know this vet has failed bulls that were loaded back on the trailer and hauled to another vet in an adjoining county and passed.
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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Brookhill Angus » Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:39 pm

jscunn wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:00 pm
My vet palpates the prostate, he was actually teaching his intern to do it on our last 2 BSEs. My vet also does a grid count. My vet will also watch them move up and down the lane at his vet practice. I guess our bulls pass an super intensive BSE..

Your vet does not do anything special as compared to vets down here, sorry to burst your bubble...
That’s great! Good for you. I guess things are more sloppy over here in Kentucky, because that is definitely not the norm.
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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Brookhill Angus » Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:53 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:31 pm
jscunn wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:00 pm
My vet palpates the prostate, he was actually teaching his intern to do it on our last 2 BSEs. My vet also does a grid count. My vet will also watch them move up and down the lane at his vet practice. I guess our bulls pass an super intensive BSE..

Your vet does not do anything special as compared to vets down here, sorry to burst your bubble...
The vet Brook is using does a thorough BSE. There is a wide range of practices that meet the criteria for a BSE. Reference the Merck manual on performance of a BSE. The most elaborate BSEs run physiological test on the spermatozoa to determine such properties as the capacity of the spermatozoa to bind with the zona of the ovum, ability of spermatozoa to undergo in vitro capacitation, etc. I don't know of any vets in the field doing that.

My only role in this movie is confirming that when this vet does a BSE, it is thorough and strict.

Just an anecdotal comment. Not all BSEs are performed with the same degree of diligence. Because I know this vet has failed bulls that were loaded back on the trailer and hauled to another vet in an adjoining county and passed.
No need to elaborate Ron, JSCUNN was just trying to make sure I didn’t feel confident in what I’m producing.

Let’s see, Angus GS, check, genetic bundle, check, top nutrition, check, tough BSE, check, no hoof trimming or foot issues for that matter, check, not fat, check. We cover the bases over at Brookhill.

But, that’s what EVERYONE is doing, right JSCUNN?, that’s why we had an Epic disaster, and why we see parentage fails, even bulls that mysteriously don’t get cows settled or can’t produce decent semen when they are collected. Yup!

Like I said, my bulls have never been returned for lack of performance, definitely never for a parentage fail, and folks have calves to prove that fact.
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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Silver » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:45 pm

......yawn.......

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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Nesikep » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:06 am

Silver wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:30 pm
gcreekrch wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:17 pm
Nesikep wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:06 pm
28 years is impressive, I'd like to get to a point where my average cull age is 10, I'm quite far from that, though I find if they make it to 10 years they make it to 15 quite often.. Oldest I've had is 18, 16 productive calves.

Quite happy here to make bunches of saleable 8, 9 and 10 year old cows as breds . It seems that is about the age that many of them develop bags that require assistance for the calf to get its first meal. I don’t have time for much of that.
It is also good to keep a herd young and salable at all times, it gives an operation options it might not otherwise have.
Agreed on some of that.. Definitely don't like bad bags, regardless of age.. and the worst part of it is the ones with bad bags usually kick like heck if you do try to help
The part I'm on the fence about is culling just because of age... Danged if you do and danged if you don't... If you cull perfectly good cows for age alone, you'll never know what their failure point will be, and raising heifers, well, it takes 2 years of feed til they have a calf.. Culling between 8 and 10 makes 6 to 8 calves, if you can increase it to 10-12 calves that's a lot more time to write off those two unproductive years, besides I've usually got far more culls (for good reason) on younger animals.. not breeding back, not producing well enough, structural problems.. the ones that get older usually have the basics down pat.
I do get the point of keeping a young herd though... I have one 15 year old that'll calf in the fall, she's my dad's pet.. she makes big calves, but if you look at it as % of her own weight, not that impressive (she's all of 1800 lbs and then some)

I can just say I'm glad I didn't cull this one for age, pictured at 16 years old (Zeus's grandma)
Image
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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Brookhill Angus » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:27 am

Nesikep wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:06 am
Silver wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:30 pm
gcreekrch wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:17 pm



Quite happy here to make bunches of saleable 8, 9 and 10 year old cows as breds . It seems that is about the age that many of them develop bags that require assistance for the calf to get its first meal. I don’t have time for much of that.
It is also good to keep a herd young and salable at all times, it gives an operation options it might not otherwise have.
Agreed on some of that.. Definitely don't like bad bags, regardless of age.. and the worst part of it is the ones with bad bags usually kick like heck if you do try to help
The part I'm on the fence about is culling just because of age... Danged if you do and danged if you don't... If you cull perfectly good cows for age alone, you'll never know what their failure point will be, and raising heifers, well, it takes 2 years of feed til they have a calf.. Culling between 8 and 10 makes 6 to 8 calves, if you can increase it to 10-12 calves that's a lot more time to write off those two unproductive years, besides I've usually got far more culls (for good reason) on younger animals.. not breeding back, not producing well enough, structural problems.. the ones that get older usually have the basics down pat.
I do get the point of keeping a young herd though... I have one 15 year old that'll calf in the fall, she's my dad's pet.. she makes big calves, but if you look at it as % of her own weight, not that impressive (she's all of 1800 lbs and then some)

I can just say I'm glad I didn't cull this one for age, pictured at 16 years old (Zeus's grandma)
Image
She’s really nice.
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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by wbvs58 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:57 am

Brookhill Angus wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:39 pm
jscunn wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:17 pm
Brookhill,
What is an intensive BSE? Details please..
As per BR, and his prior post

“The Veterinarian Brookhill is referencing does a very stringent BSE. I have personally observed other vets perform a BSE. I have only seen one - this vet actually palpate the prostate. I have watched vets look at the semen smear and do a "look see" and call the morphology and count good. This vet has the field of the microscope grid in place and he counts every grid. He does a statistical assessment of morphology. I have gone through the process with him several times. He dots every I and he crosses every T. Some folks will not use him. He is tough on scrotal scores which can vary by 3 centimeters if you don't snug it up. Please don't interpret this to mean that he deliberately fails bulls. But he sure don't give any a free pass.“
BH, with your super dooper BSE, do you do a serving ability test with each bull? A full BSE should include serving ability. Not much point in having super charged semen if he shoots his load on the ground somewhere.

Ken

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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Bright Raven » Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:26 am

wbvs58 wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:57 am
Brookhill Angus wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:39 pm
jscunn wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:17 pm
Brookhill,
What is an intensive BSE? Details please..
As per BR, and his prior post

“The Veterinarian Brookhill is referencing does a very stringent BSE. I have personally observed other vets perform a BSE. I have only seen one - this vet actually palpate the prostate. I have watched vets look at the semen smear and do a "look see" and call the morphology and count good. This vet has the field of the microscope grid in place and he counts every grid. He does a statistical assessment of morphology. I have gone through the process with him several times. He dots every I and he crosses every T. Some folks will not use him. He is tough on scrotal scores which can vary by 3 centimeters if you don't snug it up. Please don't interpret this to mean that he deliberately fails bulls. But he sure don't give any a free pass.“
BH, with your super dooper BSE, do you do a serving ability test with each bull? A full BSE should include serving ability. Not much point in having super charged semen if he shoots his load on the ground somewhere.

Ken
A servicing performance is usually not performed in a BSE which is acknowledged in the Merck Veterinarian Manual as excerpted below. Just as libido is often not assessed. I suspect it is only tested in cases where circumstances demand.

In bulls, assessment of libido is often not possible during a routine breeding soundness examination (BSE). However, if possible, the bull should be observed serving cows to allow assessment of his desire to breed, ease of mounting, ability to achieve erection and extend the penis, and presence of penile deviation or other abnormalities that may prevent successful service. Libido and serving capacity tests (scoring the number of services achieved during a set time that a bull is in a pen with a restrained cow) have been devised but are time consuming and difficult to standardize under field conditions. In addition, the results are difficult to interpret in light of the variety of stocking conditions used, eg, single versus multiple bulls or small paddocks versus large ranges
.
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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by Ebenezer » Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:15 am

jscunn wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:00 pm
My vet palpates the prostate, he was actually teaching his intern to do it on our last 2 BSEs. My vet also does a grid count. My vet will also watch them move up and down the lane at his vet practice. I guess our bulls pass an super intensive BSE..

Your vet does not do anything special as compared to vets down here, sorry to burst your bubble...
Same here.

More ads from the KY Tourism Department for all other states other than KY:
Not all BSEs are performed with the same degree of diligence. Because I know this vet has failed bulls that were loaded back on the trailer and hauled to another vet in an adjoining county and passed.
Only in KY (if I didn't know better). You catch more flies with sugar.

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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by jscunn » Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:59 am

Brookhill,
What I was trying to show you is that lots of other places do a proper BSE. You might not understand when you talk about how great your program does it, that you always insert a comment that pushes other people down while you try to elevate yourself. Comments like other vets don't do it the way mine does. That to you is I am trying to give you the best bull I can, but what comes out is other people are cutting corners and trying to screw you. Listen carefully, if you have to put people down to elevate yourself then you are doing it wrong. You have a lot of positives going on at your place, focus on those without pushing others down.

BTW, I have had a bull fail a BSE at the North Alabama bull test, because the vet there said he would develop screw claw (December 2014). I took him to my vet, who watched him walk for 20 minutes, and said 0 chance. I said would you write a letter? He did, probably created a bit of a hornets nest but short version is, I kept the bull, bred him to cows and finally shipped him last fall for a broken penis, he was sound, agile, and perfect except he could not breed cows anymore.

To expand a bit they said he would have screw claw because the outside claw was smaller than the inside claw, shape was fine. By the time he was two only I could tell the outside claw was smaller, by the time he was three I couldn't tell.

So just because my vet passed a bull someone else failed, that doesn't mean he did a be nice job in fact he did a more thorough one.

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Re: What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

Post by 76 Bar » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:07 am

Libido and serving capacity testing was briefly embraced by a small percentage of seed stock producers back in the eighties. In theory a great concept, in reality ugly for the recipients. Highly doubtful the practice would be acceptable in today's animal rights climate.

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