Cattle: Generations

Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of your favorite breed.
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CreekAngus
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Cattle: Generations

Post by CreekAngus » Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:59 pm

How many generations must one produce before they can be considered a real breeder? And I’m talking phenotype and quality of animal, not epd’s. I say at least 4 generations of your own doing. Proof that your decision making has been good or when poor, you corrected it (culling). You can change epd’s in two generations, especially in a small herd, but that doesn’t mean you’ve created good cattle. I think by the fourth generation a lot of your bad breedings will come to light; poor udders, bad feet, narrow hips, lack of rib, poor breed back.


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Re: Cattle: Generations

Post by Redgully » Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:35 am

Very interesting question, I'm interested in the replies. Tough question too.

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Re: Cattle: Generations

Post by wbvs58 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:53 am

Yes it is rewarding having weaned a nice heifer and look back through the pedigree and see your prefix going back a few generations. How many generations I don't know, some might only be a couple and you can sit back think you have achieved something, others might be 4 or so.

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Re: Cattle: Generations

Post by Caustic Burno » Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:19 am

CreekAngus wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:59 pm
How many generations must one produce before they can be considered a real breeder? And I’m talking phenotype and quality of animal, not epd’s. I say at least 4 generations of your own doing. Proof that your decision making has been good or when poor, you corrected it (culling). You can change epd’s in two generations, especially in a small herd, but that doesn’t mean you’ve created good cattle. I think by the fourth generation a lot of your bad breedings will come to light; poor udders, bad feet, narrow hips, lack of rib, poor breed back.

IMOO 7 generations.
That’s what the average seedstock producers lasted last workshop I attended.
Money doesn’t buy happiness, but the lack does buy misery.

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Re: Cattle: Generations

Post by Son of Butch » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:17 am

Prior to ets 7 generations was also the expected lifetime production of a seedstock producer.
producers age 21-65 = 44 yrs and 7 generations x 7 yrs = 49 yrs

While I agree with Creek Angus estimate of 4 generations, hot crossed buns, I think 3 generations
and a man can feel he has left his mark on his herd as a breeder.

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Re: Cattle: Generations

Post by Red Bull Breeder » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:23 am

Define breeder? I have cattle that have 3 generations of my prefix in them. I have yet to breed the perfect cow or bull.

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Re: Cattle: Generations

Post by Son of Butch » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:35 am

What we need to do is stop thinking of EPDs in terms of progress.
I know I'm guilty of it myself, we should just think of it in terms of change.
What one man considers progress another man can rightly call it detrimental.

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Re: Cattle: Generations

Post by Son of Butch » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:39 am

Red Bull Breeder wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:23 am
I have yet to breed the perfect cow or bull.
I already did, years ago I taught a cow not to eat... but then she died. :cry2:

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Re: Cattle: Generations

Post by Ebenezer » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:49 am

I know it takes 2 generations for the average AI bull's contributions to fit the environment. Very few can fit on the first cross but most are that way if they can even make the cut. I guess I have a hard time accepting a "home raised" pedigree where only the cows are from the source. The bulls are AI or purchased and the breeder credits themselves as a source when the herd is still basically outcrossed but called their own. Makes me wonder why they are willing to sell bulls to others and only use their own bulls as second string or only if they are from an outcross sire.

It always goes back the same question for me: what is the purpose of doing whatever you are doing: linebreeding, inbreeding, outcrossing, changing EPDs, chasing a trait, creating sale animals, buying links, ...?

There are more questions in livestock breeding that are a study of the breeders than the livestock.

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Re: Cattle: Generations

Post by Son of Butch » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:55 am

I would define a breeder as a seedstock producer working towards a predetermined goal.

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Re: Cattle: Generations

Post by Son of Butch » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:01 am

Ebenezer wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:49 am
Makes me wonder why they are willing to sell bulls to others and only use their own bulls as second string or only if they are from an outcross sire.
It's one of dem dare profit schemes, trying to generate more money than they previously owned.

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Re: Cattle: Generations

Post by Ebenezer » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:04 am

Son of Butch wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:01 am
Ebenezer wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:49 am
Makes me wonder why they are willing to sell bulls to others and only use their own bulls as second string or only if they are from an outcross sire.
It's one of dem dare profit schemes, trying to generate more money than they previously owned.
Predetermined goal of herd breeding = money.

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Re: Cattle: Generations

Post by Son of Butch » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:17 am

Yup, a guy could have money as a goal and not even go to jail in a capitalist society. :)

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Re: Cattle: Generations

Post by Ky hills » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:57 am

Red Bull Breeder wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:23 am
Define breeder? I have cattle that have 3 generations of my prefix in them. I have yet to breed the perfect cow or bull.
That is a very productive response, I don't see anyone producing the " perfect cow or bull " there are some that will likely come close to being perfect for our particular environments, but then likely that same individual could not thrive in all environments.

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Re: Cattle: Generations

Post by Ky hills » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:10 am

Very good question, this is likely akin to one those philosophical questions to which there is no truly right or wrong answer, depending on how one applies the question.
For me, I think it would be a multi faceted question based on a number of factors. The first year someone is starting they may or may not have a lot of animal husbandry knowledge, yet putting a bull with some cows is in a sense breeding cattle. Having a plan and selecting animals with a particular goal in mind is a more advanced breeding. I would say that the number of generations themselves is going to vary depending on individual goals. For me it isn't at a certain generation number, but rather the point of being a "successful breeder" and my definition of that would be at the point of achieving a herd that thrived in your particular environment and management, and could replicate at a level maintaining that or improving upon it. For the record I'm not there yet, but I have a plan.

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