Aurochs

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coaklnic000
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Aurochs

Post by coaklnic000 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:19 pm

Hi I was wondering do we know which came first? Indian or European Aurochs. Thanks I really enjoy hearing y’alls thoughts on the history of cattle.



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Re: Aurochs

Post by TennesseeTuxedo » Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:39 pm

Europe.
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Re: Aurochs

Post by Son of Butch » Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:40 pm

coaklnic000 wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:19 pm
Hi I was wondering do we know which came first? Indian or European Aurochs.
IF they originated in North Africa, as some suppose, I'd speculate their migration reached
Europe before India. But that's just my semi-educated guess.
IMO -
The modern world is better off without them and for all I care can stay where they are; extinct.

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Re: Aurochs

Post by coaklnic000 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:46 am

Thanks guys :)

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Re: Aurochs

Post by WalnutCrest » Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:50 pm

Son of Butch wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:40 pm
coaklnic000 wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:19 pm
Hi I was wondering do we know which came first? Indian or European Aurochs.
IF they originated in North Africa, as some suppose, I'd speculate their migration reached
Europe before India. But that's just my semi-educated guess.
IMO -
The modern world is better off without them and for all I care can stay where they are; extinct.
Better off without them?

You've had personal experience with them, have you?! ;)
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Re: Aurochs

Post by Son of Butch » Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:02 am

They went extinct just 4 or 500 years ago, so there are plenty of recorded accounts.
Julius Caesar's 1st hand report after encountering them during Gallic War in 50 bc was so
wild, fearless and aggressive he didn't believe even a young Auroch calf could be domesticated.
They would turn on hunters and hunt them down through the forest... no thank you. :)

IMO - They were never domesticated, but passed their genes on to cattle by bulls mating with cows
in domestic herds when they did cross paths. Auroch cows were so wicked they'd kill a bull they
deemed unsuitable rather than mating with them.

While some modern breeds of cattle share segments of dna with Aurochs, there are more breeds
that don't than do.

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Re: Aurochs

Post by Redgully » Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:42 am

Son of Butch wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:02 am
They went extinct just 4 or 500 years ago, so there are plenty of recorded accounts.
Julius Caesar's 1st hand report after encountering them during Gallic War in 50 bc was so
wild, fearless and aggressive he didn't believe even a young Auroch calf could be domesticated.
They would turn on hunters and hunt them down through the forest... no thank you. :)

IMO - They were never domesticated, but passed their genes on to cattle by bulls mating with cows
in domestic herds when they did cross paths. Auroch cows were so wicked they'd kill a bull they
deemed unsuitable rather than mating with them.

While some modern breeds of cattle share segments of dna with Aurochs, there are more breeds
that don't than do.
Heck reading that description i think i had one here a while back, must have been a genetic throw back. No wonder they extinct, that thing didn't last long here either!

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Re: Aurochs

Post by Bright Raven » Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:15 am

Son of Butch wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:02 am

IMO - They were never domesticated, but passed their genes on to cattle by bulls mating with cows
in domestic herds when they did cross paths. Auroch cows were so wicked they'd kill a bull they
deemed unsuitable rather than mating with them.
Aurochs are wildly held to be the primary progenitor of domesticated cattle. There were many species of wild cattle across Europe and Asia. A couple still exist (but not Aurochs). Some believe that primitive man is likely to have domesticated cattle in more than one location and from more than one source. There are several genomic studies that have found genes suggesting other species of wild cattle than Aurochs as the progenitors of domestic cattle. It may never be fully known.

Here is one that is interesting:
https://www.livescience.com/28154-new-w ... igins.html
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Re: Aurochs

Post by Son of Butch » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:54 am

Not that interesting, thought it would link to the actual research rather than public musings.

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Re: Aurochs

Post by Son of Butch » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:09 am

I understand that you can't see the other side of the coin, but....
Domestic animals were created in 4500 bc (+ or - a few hundred years) in ch 2.
Wild animals living today were created perhaps as much as 8,000 years earlier in ch 1.
I won't expand on it here, so as not to get locked.
But I will answer pms.

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Re: Aurochs

Post by Muddy » Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:45 pm

There are several people that are attempting do a recreation of Aurochs. For some weird reason one group wants to create an American Auroch here. I thought that group is nuts.

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Re: Aurochs

Post by Lucky_P » Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:53 am

Some interesting stuff on aurochs, Heck cattle, and attempts to re-create them (and other extinct species) here:
http://breedingback.blogspot.com/2018/

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Re: Aurochs

Post by Bright Raven » Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:05 pm

Son of Butch wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:54 am
Not that interesting, thought it would link to the actual research rather than public musings.
Butch here is a summary. Research based. A pdf of the study is available but you have to pay for it:

Domestication of the now-extinct wild aurochs, Bos primigenius, gave rise to the two major domestic extant cattle taxa, B. taurus and B. indicus. While previous genetic studies have shed some light on the evolutionary relationships between European aurochs and modern cattle, important questions remain unanswered, including the phylogenetic status of aurochs, whether gene flow from aurochs into early domestic populations occurred, and which genomic regions were subject to selection processes during and after domestication. Here, we address these questions using whole-genome sequencing data generated from an approximately 6,750-year-old British aurochs bone and genome sequence data from 81 additional cattle plus genome-wide single nucleotide polymorphism data from a diverse panel of 1,225 modern animals. Phylogenomic analyses place the aurochs as a distinct outgroup to the domestic B. taurus lineage, supporting the predominant Near Eastern origin of European cattle. Conversely, traditional British and Irish breeds share more genetic variants with this aurochs specimen than other European populations, supporting localized gene flow from aurochs into the ancestors of modern British and Irish cattle, perhaps through purposeful restocking by early herders in Britain. Finally, the functions of genes showing evidence for positive selection in B. taurus are enriched for neurobiology, growth, metabolism and immunobiology, suggesting that these biological processes have been important in the domestication of cattle. This work provides important new information regarding the origins and functional evolution of modern cattle, revealing that the interface between early European domestic populations and wild aurochs was significantly more complex than previously thought.
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Re: Aurochs

Post by Son of Butch » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:18 pm

Auroch bones found in Britain 6,750 yrs old - 2015 when studied = 4,735 bc and were found to share
short segments of dna with some modern British and Irish cattle. ie Highland, Kerry and White Park
ect, but did not share any dna with angus, holsteins and others.

Proof that possibly between 4,500 bc - 1500 ad some Aurochs mated with some domestic cattle.
What would be interesting is getting it dated to when the crossbreeding occurred.

That hybrids were produced is true, but there is no record that any Auroch was ever domesticated.

Seems the only guys who think a true Auroch could be domesticated are the ones that have only
seen them under a microscope. Reports from men who actually encountered them say otherwise.
Some people have kept cougars, but that doesn't mean cougars have been domesticated.

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Re: Aurochs

Post by gaurus » Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:22 am

Son of Butch wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:02 am
While some modern breeds of cattle share segments of dna with Aurochs, there are more breeds
that don't than do.
What you are talking about? 100% of Bos Taurus breeds(European/Asian/North African) breeds can trace their lineage back to Aurochs! European Aurochs are Bos primigenius primigenius and the domesticated european cattle is Bos primigenius taurus(aka Bos Taurus), Zebu cattle can trace their lineage to the Indian Aurochs(Bos primigenius namadicus).

Your post is really out of line and makes no sense. If European domestic cattle share only segments of DNA with Aurochs, where do they get the rest from? Aliens? Cause sure as be nice ain't from other wild bovine(Yak,bison,Gaurus).

Taurine cattle were domesticated in the Middle East from the wild and now extinct Aurochs. They then spread throughout Europe where they interbred with local population of European Aurochs, for example in the British Isles then domesticated cattle(descending directly from first domesticated Aurochs in the Middle East) interbred with British Aurochs. In Spain and Iberia domesticated cattle interbred with Iberian Aurochs(later thru the Moorish invasions some zebu interbreeding took place, Texas Longhorn are about 85% European Taurus and 15% Zebu).

At the time in Europe and Middle east The only wild bovine were the Aurochs(European Bison range was much north and were more wild than even the wildest Aurochs), no other possible descendant from domestic cattle than European/Middle East Aurochs. So to imply that modern cattle do not descend from Meddle east Aurochs first then interbred when they were already domesticated with local European wild Aurochs makes no sense.
Last edited by gaurus on Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:02 am, edited 5 times in total.

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