Hereford no epds on yearling bulls

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Hereford no epds on yearling bulls

Post by ccr » Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:46 pm

Been looking at a couple of yearling Hereford bulls and the seller gave me their registration number to look up. The American Hereford Association’s (AHA) website list these bulls, but they do not show any epd’s. I used an average from the epd’s from the sire and dam for each animal to estimate these yearlings epd’s.

I think simmental (ASA) and red angus (RAAA) shows epd’s of yearling cattle and the ASA even will show estimated matings epd’s.

Is it normal for the AHA to not show epd’s of registered yearling cattle?

Thanks, I’m looking for a bull and still learning about the different associations.


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Re: Hereford no epds on yearling bulls

Post by Ky hills » Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:55 pm

I am new to the Hereford scene, and don't know the details. With Angus, I believe that some performance information like BW, WW, etc ,has to be submitted before EPD's are shown, or possibly a genomic profile will yield some EPD's.
I was pretty frustrated a while back about our Hereford bull. We bought him at a sale and from the auction block he was said to have calving ease EPD's, and when we got his registration paper there was none on it. In their defense I think they were looking at the sires EPD's that were listed and not his individual numbers.

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Re: Hereford no epds on yearling bulls

Post by ccr » Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:05 pm

I'm wondering do these breeders sure enough get birthweight, weaning weight, and yearling weight (using a scale).

Isn't this required to register an animal?
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Re: Hereford no epds on yearling bulls

Post by Ky hills » Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:11 pm

Apparently its not required, it was my understanding that Herefords did require genetic testing in order to be registered but now I'm not sure. I haven't registered any yet so I haven't looked into the details.

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Re: Hereford no epds on yearling bulls

Post by Caustic Burno » Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:18 pm

ccr wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:46 pm
Been looking at a couple of yearling Hereford bulls and the seller gave me their registration number to look up. The American Hereford Association’s (AHA) website list these bulls, but they do not show any epd’s. I used an average from the epd’s from the sire and dam for each animal to estimate these yearlings epd’s.

I think simmental (ASA) and red angus (RAAA) shows epd’s of yearling cattle and the ASA even will show estimated matings epd’s.

Is it normal for the AHA to not show epd’s of registered yearling cattle?

Thanks, I’m looking for a bull and still learning about the different associations.

Money scheme by the AHA there are two routes pedigree and TPR reporting.
They refuse to give the EPD’s to the pedigree breeders for not playing their game.
That’s why I quit the AHA animals lost their EPD’s overnight.
Money doesn’t buy happiness, but the lack does buy misery.

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Re: Hereford no epds on yearling bulls

Post by elkwc » Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:58 am

ccr wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:46 pm
Been looking at a couple of yearling Hereford bulls and the seller gave me their registration number to look up. The American Hereford Association’s (AHA) website list these bulls, but they do not show any epd’s. I used an average from the epd’s from the sire and dam for each animal to estimate these yearlings epd’s.

I think simmental (ASA) and red angus (RAAA) shows epd’s of yearling cattle and the ASA even will show estimated matings epd’s.

Is it normal for the AHA to not show epd’s of registered yearling cattle?

Thanks, I’m looking for a bull and still learning about the different associations.
I've had similar thoughts. I bought a Hereford bull last year and he lost his EPD's. I didn't notice it until a few months after I bought him and his papers were transferred to me. Haven't checked the bull and heifer I bought this year. So not sure if they lost their's or not.

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Re: Hereford no epds on yearling bulls

Post by 76 Bar » Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:54 am

I think simmental (ASA) and red angus (RAAA) shows epd’s of yearling cattle and the ASA even will show estimated matings epd’s.
Regardless of the animal's age, the RAAA provides a plethora of info on animals registered with the Association not the least of which are current EPDs.

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Re: Hereford no epds on yearling bulls

Post by SPH » Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:10 pm

Not sure what the exact criteria is but you do have to have certain weights and data reported to AHA to have EPDS on an animal and that probably includes the sire and dam as well. We're a TPR breeder so we record and submit all the data we collect so everything we raise are going to have epds. You dont have to DNA test to register an animal but if you are going to register calves sired by a bull or use a cow as an ET donor you do have to DNA test them in order to register their calves.

What good would epds on an animal be if the breeder is not submitting weights or performance data on their cattle? EPD accuracies only increase with the amount of data there is on the individual and the animals in their pedigree so if there isn't any data on the individual and/or dam and sire what good or reliable would those EPDs be anyways with hardly any accuracy percentages tied to them? Its not as simple as just averaging the sire and dam EPDs either. I could show you full siblings we've raised and none have identical EPDs because they did not have identical performance weights and data or ratios in their contemporary groups.

I guess if a breeder cares wether or not a purebred animal has epds then they may want to look at the operations they are looking at buying from. Why raise and sell purebred seedstock if you dont care to either collect or submit data to the breed association you register animals with? If you raise good cattle then you should have no reason not to be transparent with your production data.

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Re: Hereford no epds on yearling bulls

Post by Caustic Burno » Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:51 pm

SPH wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:10 pm
Not sure what the exact criteria is but you do have to have certain weights and data reported to AHA to have EPDS on an animal and that probably includes the sire and dam as well. We're a TPR breeder so we record and submit all the data we collect so everything we raise are going to have epds. You dont have to DNA test to register an animal but if you are going to register calves sired by a bull or use a cow as an ET donor you do have to DNA test them in order to register their calves.

What good would epds on an animal be if the breeder is not submitting weights or performance data on their cattle? EPD accuracies only increase with the amount of data there is on the individual and the animals in their pedigree so if there isn't any data on the individual and/or dam and sire what good or reliable would those EPDs be anyways with hardly any accuracy percentages tied to them? Its not as simple as just averaging the sire and dam EPDs either. I could show you full siblings we've raised and none have identical EPDs because they did not have identical performance weights and data or ratios in their contemporary groups.

I guess if a breeder cares wether or not a purebred animal has epds then they may want to look at the operations they are looking at buying from. Why raise and sell purebred seedstock if you dont care to either collect or submit data to the breed association you register animals with? If you raise good cattle then you should have no reason not to be transparent with your production data.
TPR is a money making scheme of the AHA or lines of Herefords EPD’s wouldn’t have disappeared overnight for a dollar. Our EPD’s were literally held for ransom, that is why I am not a member today after decades. This system was brought in by a select few not to improve the breed but to line the pockets IMO. I was in the association long before the acronym TPR was even thought of. Nothing wrong with data collection plenty wrong with the fee system setup. I have one registered Hereford left, I thought it so egregious I didn’t just leave the association I left the breed.
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Re: Hereford no epds on yearling bulls

Post by 76 Bar » Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:57 pm

We bought him at a sale and from the auction block he was said to have calving ease EPD's
Read my lips...do your home work prior to attending a sale and NEVER fall for the hype that's spewed from the auctionners and especially when the bidding stalls.

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Re: Hereford no epds on yearling bulls

Post by Ky hills » Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:07 pm

76 Bar wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:57 pm
We bought him at a sale and from the auction block he was said to have calving ease EPD's
Read my lips...do your home work prior to attending a sale and NEVER fall for the hype that's spewed from the auctionners and especially when the bidding stalls.
True, i had looked at the catalog and typically they list the individuals EPD’s but in that case it was the sire’s and I did not catch that detail.

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Re: Hereford no epds on yearling bulls

Post by 76 Bar » Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:04 pm

True, i had looked at the catalog and typically they list the individuals EPD’s but in that case it was the sire’s and I did not catch that detail.
Not beating up on you KyHills. Often as not the best lessons are painful. Been there done that more than a few times. ;-)

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Re: Hereford no epds on yearling bulls

Post by SPH » Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:50 pm

76 Bar wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:57 pm
We bought him at a sale and from the auction block he was said to have calving ease EPD's
Read my lips...do your home work prior to attending a sale and NEVER fall for the hype that's spewed from the auctionners and especially when the bidding stalls.
Couldn't agree more! Once they hit the sale ring the auctioneer is going to do everything he can to get top dollar which is in his and the seller's best interest to get top dollar - never get caught up in auction tactics. Go through the sale catalog and dig through the pedigrees and production data and have a list to look at closer before the sale starts. If you are buying off a reputable breeder's production sale or private treaty there should be all kinds of production records behind that animal if you do a little research on them or inquire to the breeder on specifics you want to know. Just as important as the individual's records/numbers are that of the animals in it's pedigree. What kind of cows are in that bull's pedigree? What kind of longevity and production records are available on them? With Herefords I like to dig through the performance pedigree data and see how many calves and the average ratios on weights and possibly carcass data is on there. Have a lot more faith in buying a bull with a lot of productive cows in his pedigree as wells as bulls too.

Same thing when we've looked at buying mature females off dispersal sales in the past, we'll weed out anything that doesn't meet our requirements then start looking at phenotype, udder, structure, etc and narrow down the list more. Many times those cows just like bull sales will go for more than what we'll be willing to pay for and you just have to accept that is part of the process and move on to your next targets. If you leave the sale empty handed so be it, you probably had good eyes/taste on the sale offering and didn't over-extend your budget nor settle for something just for the sake of wanting to take home something.

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Re: Hereford no epds on yearling bulls

Post by Ky hills » Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:11 pm

76 Bar wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:04 pm
True, i had looked at the catalog and typically they list the individuals EPD’s but in that case it was the sire’s and I did not catch that detail.
Not beating up on you KyHills. Often as not the best lessons are painful. Been there done that more than a few times. ;-)
No problem, I’m a no learner I think. I’ve been to those rodeos and keep going back. The bull himself is pretty good I believe, I’ve done a lot worse. Was just some disappointed as they announced him to have “sleep all night calving ease EPD’s, the kind of bull you could take home and breed a set of black heifers to”. Maybe maybe not after looking up his sire and dam it looks to be fire and ice for birth weight and CE. It worked out ok though he is with our cows which is where I wanted needed him but liked the idea of having the CE option for heifers.

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