Why Genomics Will Be the Future of EPDs

Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of your favorite breed.
User avatar
Bright Raven
GURU
GURU
Posts: 9544
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:57 pm
Location: Kentucky
Has thanked: 415 times
Been thanked: 432 times

Why Genomics Will Be the Future of EPDs

Post by Bright Raven » Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:55 am

Genomics can eliminate many of the problems of current EPDs. EPDs are generated by models. As I mentioned previously, there are three components to the database that are used to calculate EPDs:

1. Parentage (this is pedigree or knowledge/data from ancestors)
2. Performance Data (this is raw numeric data, collected and reported by members)
3. Genomics (this is where DNA information utilizing markers is converted to numerical data).

Performance Data is the area which depends on an honor system. If all members reported accurate data, there would not be a problem. The "human factor" creates an environment where data may be bad because of user error and/or because of deliberate fraud such as shaving birth weights.

With advances in genomics and research, the correlation of markers to performance, function and traits is going to be discovered and tested.

For example, if the markers for claw set are located. The bull with the best claw set can be tested. The bull can be taken to a farm, bred to a 100 heifers and the results studied. This kind of research is going to take time.

It is the only way to eliminate the "human factor".

The trouble with Genomics is that there is a lot of mistrust. There is a lot of information that many feel threatened by especially if the numbers of their favorite cow/bull goes down and they think that there is a conspiracy going on against them.
Image


"Looking for an honest man".
Diogenes.

User avatar
sstterry
GURU
GURU
Posts: 1110
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:04 am
Location: Bulls Gap, TN
Has thanked: 136 times
Been thanked: 94 times

Re: Why Genomics Will Be the Future of EPDs

Post by sstterry » Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:18 am

But isn't genetics the future of just about everything, from humans to soybeans?

User avatar
Bright Raven
GURU
GURU
Posts: 9544
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:57 pm
Location: Kentucky
Has thanked: 415 times
Been thanked: 432 times

Re: Why Genomics Will Be the Future of EPDs

Post by Bright Raven » Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:21 am

sstterry wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:18 am
But isn't genetics the future of just about everything, from humans to soybeans?
That and money.
"Looking for an honest man".
Diogenes.

Cornfed01
Cowhand
Cowhand
Posts: 82
Joined: Tue May 07, 2019 2:12 am
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: Why Genomics Will Be the Future of EPDs

Post by Cornfed01 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:21 am

So genomics are the EPD's of fake meat?

User avatar
Red Bull Breeder
GURU
GURU
Posts: 7512
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:26 am
Location: North Arkansas
Has thanked: 228 times
Been thanked: 224 times

Re: Why Genomics Will Be the Future of EPDs

Post by Red Bull Breeder » Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:25 am

From my small amount of DNA testing they still have a ways to go.

User avatar
Bright Raven
GURU
GURU
Posts: 9544
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:57 pm
Location: Kentucky
Has thanked: 415 times
Been thanked: 432 times

Re: Why Genomics Will Be the Future of EPDs

Post by Bright Raven » Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:26 am

sstterry wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:18 am
But isn't genetics the future of just about everything, from humans to soybeans?
That is a very broad statement. Genetics already influences almost everything we do.
"Looking for an honest man".
Diogenes.

User avatar
Bright Raven
GURU
GURU
Posts: 9544
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:57 pm
Location: Kentucky
Has thanked: 415 times
Been thanked: 432 times

Re: Why Genomics Will Be the Future of EPDs

Post by Bright Raven » Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:26 am

Red Bull Breeder wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:25 am
From my small amount of DNA testing they still have a ways to go.
Speculation on my part but I think 20 years.
"Looking for an honest man".
Diogenes.

User avatar
True Grit Farms
GURU
GURU
Posts: 9250
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:29 pm
Location: Middle Georgia
Has thanked: 168 times
Been thanked: 456 times

Re: Why Genomics Will Be the Future of EPDs

Post by True Grit Farms » Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:40 am

DNA is the the future. It sure is nice to be left behind till you need something.
If we'd of know this we'd of picked our own cotton.

User avatar
Red Bull Breeder
GURU
GURU
Posts: 7512
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:26 am
Location: North Arkansas
Has thanked: 228 times
Been thanked: 224 times

Re: Why Genomics Will Be the Future of EPDs

Post by Red Bull Breeder » Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:31 am

Who is being left behind TG? If DNA is the future why plug it into EPD'S. Why can't it stand alone?

User avatar
True Grit Farms
GURU
GURU
Posts: 9250
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:29 pm
Location: Middle Georgia
Has thanked: 168 times
Been thanked: 456 times

Re: Why Genomics Will Be the Future of EPDs

Post by True Grit Farms » Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:51 am

Red Bull Breeder wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:31 am
Who is being left behind TG? If DNA is the future why plug it into EPD'S. Why can't it stand alone?
Expected Progeny Differences. DNA isn't expected, it's exactly what it is. RB, I don't think technology has caught up with how to properly use DNA yet. We all know that even if you have the same DNA, the results won't be the same. But once they figure out how to line the genes up we're in trouble.
If we'd of know this we'd of picked our own cotton.

Ebenezer
GURU
GURU
Posts: 1622
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:46 am
Location: Piedmont of SC
Has thanked: 131 times
Been thanked: 268 times

Re: Why Genomics Will Be the Future of EPDs

Post by Ebenezer » Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:55 am

For example, if the markers for claw set are located.
Fly in the ointment is the word "If" and the other implied message here is "If all of the markers". The problem now is that just some of the markers are known and folks act like it is the whole deal. It is not "garbage in/garbage out" it is merely an incomplete data system right now.

And I think we can say that all DNA is not inherited equally (50/50) to offspring, we need to remember gestational programming and epigentics so that knowing some on sire and dam do not fully paint the whole future.

Indiscriminate use of genomics will be used to narrow the genepool unless gene altering is also used. Just like the chase for AAA $B has already done for the Angus. So all that glitters is not gold.

For now, I live in and deal with the present.

User avatar
Bright Raven
GURU
GURU
Posts: 9544
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:57 pm
Location: Kentucky
Has thanked: 415 times
Been thanked: 432 times

Re: Why Genomics Will Be the Future of EPDs

Post by Bright Raven » Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:08 am

Ebenezer wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:55 am
For example, if the markers for claw set are located.
Fly in the ointment is the word "If" and the other implied message here is "If all of the markers". The problem now is that just some of the markers are known and folks act like it is the whole deal. It is not "garbage in/garbage out" it is merely an incomplete data system right now.

And I think we can say that all DNA is not inherited equally (50/50) to offspring, we need to remember gestational programming and epigentics so that knowing some on sire and dam do not fully paint the whole future.

Indiscriminate use of genomics will be used to narrow the genepool unless gene altering is also used. Just like the chase for AAA $B has already done for the Angus. So all that glitters is not gold.

For now, I live in and deal with the present.
The geneticist and modelers are aware of the challenges. The genome of the cow has been mapped but the identification of all the genes and what they influence is ongoing.

Regarding inheritance. Geneticist the world over are involved. They understand the mechanisms of meiosis, crossing over, mutation, etc. There are a plethora of mechanisms that influence inheritance. Nevertheless, within the sphere of knowledge being gained and the testing through research, these challenges will be met.

Edited to add: the scope is much broader than Angus and the AAA.
"Looking for an honest man".
Diogenes.

User avatar
Red Bull Breeder
GURU
GURU
Posts: 7512
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:26 am
Location: North Arkansas
Has thanked: 228 times
Been thanked: 224 times

Re: Why Genomics Will Be the Future of EPDs

Post by Red Bull Breeder » Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:23 am

True Grit Farms wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:51 am
Red Bull Breeder wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:31 am
Who is being left behind TG? If DNA is the future why plug it into EPD'S. Why can't it stand alone?
Expected Progeny Differences. DNA isn't expected, it's exactly what it is. RB, I don't think technology has caught up with how to properly use DNA yet. We all know that even if you have the same DNA, the results won't be the same. But once they figure out how to line the genes up we're in trouble.
It becomes expected progeny differences as soon as its incorperated into EPD's Grit. I would agree that dna is what it is. But there is sure enough is some things that i see that don't match the dna.

User avatar
True Grit Farms
GURU
GURU
Posts: 9250
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:29 pm
Location: Middle Georgia
Has thanked: 168 times
Been thanked: 456 times

Re: Why Genomics Will Be the Future of EPDs

Post by True Grit Farms » Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:29 am

Red Bull Breeder wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:23 am
True Grit Farms wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:51 am
Red Bull Breeder wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:31 am
Who is being left behind TG? If DNA is the future why plug it into EPD'S. Why can't it stand alone?
Expected Progeny Differences. DNA isn't expected, it's exactly what it is. RB, I don't think technology has caught up with how to properly use DNA yet. We all know that even if you have the same DNA, the results won't be the same. But once they figure out how to line the genes up we're in trouble.
It becomes expected progeny differences as soon as its incorperated into EPD's Grit. I would agree that dna is what it is. But there is sure enough is some things that i see that don't match the dna.
I see that when I look at my brothers and kids. Had my oldest tested to make sure he was mine.
If we'd of know this we'd of picked our own cotton.

User avatar
SPH
Rancher
Rancher
Posts: 559
Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 8:47 pm
Location: Iowa
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 21 times

Re: Why Genomics Will Be the Future of EPDs

Post by SPH » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:03 pm

Been trying to stay out of some of the hot button EPD threads here lately but I'm glad you broke it down like you did Raven. It's such a divisive hot button topic with some because you have people who rely too much on EPDs, those who think they are worthless and hate them, and then everyone else pretty much falls in the middle somewhere with them.

I can't stress enough that EPDs are just ONE of many tools you have available to make selection decisions. I can show you animals with great EPDs that come no where near performing like them and some that have poor EPDs that outperform animals with much better EPDs. Also a big thing to factor into EPDs are the accuracies. You may be able to trust that an animal is more true to their EPD if the accuracy is say .80 and not .20 The only way you'll get those accuracies higher is to report as much raw data on your cattle as possible so they factor into the EPD calculations. DNA testing also affects that but when I go through our cattle's EPDs I see the biggest changes each time we submit stuff like birth, weaning, yearling, and carcass scan data to the association. I don't know how other associations EPDs are weighted and calculated but I know with the Herefords I've seen EPDs change more on raw data submission than when we had a DNA test done on them. And the older animals it seems like their EPDs hardly move much because there is enough production data reported on them they probably have been pretty consistent over time and another calf on say an 8 year old cow probably isn't going to sway the data much on them or another set of calves out of a heavily used AI sire too. I've also seen new or less proven AI sires that once there is a calf crop or 2 out of them have their EPDs go to pot once people start submitting their weights -seen a few bulls over the years look OK for calving ease and BW initially then their EPDs get hurt badly once the actual weights start being reported.

I won't lie, it is nice to tie some good EPDs to your cattle as it makes them more marketable, but a good set of EPD numbers isn't going too fool anyone when they do the eye test or look through their production records. A good cattleman is not going to buy a bull or female that has a flawed phenotype or structure issues or has had poor calves just because they have a nice looking set of EPDs. Especially those who sell bulls to commercial cattlemen, if that high EPD bull isn't putting pounds on their calves they probably aren't going to come back to buy another bull from you.

As much as we all try to understand EPDs many of us probably will never fully understand everything that goes into them. I'm not going to tell a guy how to run his operation as there is no "cookie cutter" way of doing things across the board for everyone so there will always be a spectrum of guys out there who don't care to use EPDs at all to those who maybe rely too heavily on them.

Post Reply