I don't know what you are all complaining about

Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of your favorite breed.
wbvs58
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I don't know what you are all complaining about

Post by wbvs58 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:45 am

The way people are talking on here you would think that your Angus cows are falling to pieces after their first calf. I use genetics exclusively from the US and mostly on the recommendation from members on this forum. I think I raise my cattle in some challenging conditions, never is a season good from start to finish. My cows are never in the condition that Bright Ravens are in and they have to be very innovative foragers at times but I think they are healthy and I wean calves that are 2nd to none. The cows often amaze me how they go straight back in calf even though they may be experiencing challenging conditions. I see no evidence of unsoundness or foot troubles. I am more than happy with my herd.

I do like the variety of types within the Angus breed which allows me to choose the direction I wish to take. I now have a few GAR Prophet cows which I find are a bit harder doing than some but they raise some great calves and go straight back into calf. I have put these cows back to thicker easier doing bulls like SAV Renown and EF Commando and I very much like what I am getting. The Angus breed allows me to do this with the various phenotypes available to me.

With all the doom and gloom that some members are posting about Angus, I think it is about time we stand up and ask people to give specific examples of these perceived problems and not just this hypothetical BS that is being thrown around. I guess it is a case of the "tall poppy syndrome" where many people want to bring it down.

Ken



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Re: I don't know what you are all complaining about

Post by TennesseeTuxedo » Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:51 am

Voice of reason from the Land Down Under. Thank you.
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Re: I don't know what you are all complaining about

Post by Bright Raven » Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:52 am

wbvs58 wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:45 am
The way people are talking on here you would think that your Angus cows are falling to pieces after their first calf. I use genetics exclusively from the US and mostly on the recommendation from members on this forum. I think I raise my cattle in some challenging conditions, never is a season good from start to finish. My cows are never in the condition that Bright Ravens are in and they have to be very innovative foragers at times but I think they are healthy and I wean calves that are 2nd to none. The cows often amaze me how they go straight back in calf even though they may be experiencing challenging conditions. I see no evidence of unsoundness or foot troubles. I am more than happy with my herd.

I do like the variety of types within the Angus breed which allows me to choose the direction I wish to take. I now have a few GAR Prophet cows which I find are a bit harder doing than some but they raise some great calves and go straight back into calf. I have put these cows back to thicker easier doing bulls like SAV Renown and EF Commando and I very much like what I am getting. The Angus breed allows me to do this with the various phenotypes available to me.

With all the doom and gloom that some members are posting about Angus, I think it is about time we stand up and ask people to give specific examples of these perceived problems and not just this hypothetical BS that is being thrown around. I guess it is a case of the "tall poppy syndrome" where many people want to bring it down.

Ken
10-4 good buddy. This is what I am seeing also.
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Re: I don't know what you are all complaining about

Post by True Grit Farms » Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:12 am

A few Angus breeders are over the top and stir the crap. Then their's other breed pimps that are jealous and stir the crap. Black calves sell better in my market so Angus is a no brainer. I came to the conclusion that it's cow size and not the breed that works for me. Big fat cows fair about as good as big fat people when it's a 100+ degrees and nothing to eat.
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Re: I don't know what you are all complaining about

Post by Ebenezer » Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:13 am

EPDs are skewed by age of animals to favor younger animals. Pivot year skew is worse and incorrect.

New foot data seems to start all animals off at near perfect. A cleaner version would be to start with reported data.

Assumed foot data taints $M in a big way. It would be interesting to see member input on the $M issue. I bet a bunch asked for a Stay EPD to get over ruled with a maternal index swayed by mature weight.

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Re: I don't know what you are all complaining about

Post by Bright Raven » Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:16 am

I called the AAA yesterday. It was interesting to get first hand information on the update of some of the EPD models.

EPDs are generated by linear models. There are 3 factors that go into generating numbers from the database:

1. Parentage ( this is pedigree or knowledge/data from ancestors)
2. Performance Data ( this is raw numeric data)
3. Genomics( this is where DNA information utilizing markers is converted to numerical data).

I also called the Simmental Association. I discussed the new AAA model updates with ASA. They are quite envious of the AAA new model.
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Re: I don't know what you are all complaining about

Post by jscunn » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:10 am

Ken,
Another problem is people talking about what they dont have any experience with. So and so throws bad attitudes, bad feet, or poor udders. They have never owned one or never seen even a half a dozen progeny of bull double X but they heard he did from a friend (who didnt own any double X calves either) alot of those stories get started based on jealousy or something that happened between two farms 20 years ago. BTW I am guilty of passing on the same crap as well but will attempt to refrain from it in the future. I think you will see alot of stories in the future with whatever the current hot bull or program is, I caution everyone to trust their eyes before their ears, so to speak. Those stories do hurt sales because I would NOT use double x if his progeny have all these problems, so it has an effect.
Last edited by jscunn on Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I don't know what you are all complaining about

Post by jscunn » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:11 am

btw Prophet over Resource sounds like a mating that would work, imo..

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Re: I don't know what you are all complaining about

Post by Bright Raven » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:27 am

jscunn wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:10 am
Ken,
Another problem is people talking about what they dont have any experience with. So and so throws bad attitudes, bad feet, or poor udders. They have never owned one or never seen even a half a dozen progeny of bull double X but they heard he did from a friend (who didnt own any double X calves either) alot of those stories get started based on jealousy or something that happened between two farms 20 years ago. BTW I am guilty of passing on the same crap as well but will attempt to refrain from it in the future. I think you will see alot of stories in the future with whatever the current hot bull or program is, I caution everyone to trust their eyes before their ears, so to speak. Those stories do hurt sales because I would use double x if his progeny have all these problems, so it has an effect.
A voice of reason. I appreciate that. Captures the essence of what Ken and I, independently, have observed.

It takes a lot of data to draw valid conclusions. When you get a lot of Users making anecdotal statements, the view that dominates is not usually accurate.
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Re: I don't know what you are all complaining about

Post by Brookhill Angus » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:39 pm

wbvs58 wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:45 am
The way people are talking on here you would think that your Angus cows are falling to pieces after their first calf. I use genetics exclusively from the US and mostly on the recommendation from members on this forum. I think I raise my cattle in some challenging conditions, never is a season good from start to finish. My cows are never in the condition that Bright Ravens are in and they have to be very innovative foragers at times but I think they are healthy and I wean calves that are 2nd to none. The cows often amaze me how they go straight back in calf even though they may be experiencing challenging conditions. I see no evidence of unsoundness or foot troubles. I am more than happy with my herd.

I do like the variety of types within the Angus breed which allows me to choose the direction I wish to take. I now have a few GAR Prophet cows which I find are a bit harder doing than some but they raise some great calves and go straight back into calf. I have put these cows back to thicker easier doing bulls like SAV Renown and EF Commando and I very much like what I am getting. The Angus breed allows me to do this with the various phenotypes available to me.

With all the doom and gloom that some members are posting about Angus, I think it is about time we stand up and ask people to give specific examples of these perceived problems and not just this hypothetical BS that is being thrown around. I guess it is a case of the "tall poppy syndrome" where many people want to bring it down.

Ken
Great post Ken.

Here is the issue. There is a syndrome, not sure of the official name, whereby a person is afraid of success. They fear it, and what it can bring to their lives, therefore they avoid it at all costs and remain mediocre. Failure is comfortable and reliable for them.

Here is an article to read about it. I saw problem this when I was a trader on Wall Street, and it was pervasive among older traders.

http://bit.ly/2JXYcH8

Angus is a ridiculously successful breed not to mention brand. There are cattlemen that avoid it solely because they see it as hype, or they don’t feel like they can raise the bar on their herd. I don’t know why, but they just plain despise Angus. Much to their peril, business speaking, and possibly at calving and other times.

Now if you want to raise other breeds because you truly enjoy that breed, that's great, absolutely nothing wrong with that and I support your program, but if you (not actually you) are avoiding Angus because you think they have a plethora of problems and you believe they will spell the downfall of your operation, then I wish you well as you are phased out of the cattle business over time.

I've been given a huge amount of flack on this board because of my program. A lot of it from other people in the Angus breed which I know for a fact is just jealousy. But from the non Angus breeders that have put down everything we are doing, they rarely post pics, they rarely back up their theories, if ever, and we don't know who they are because they are behind a screen name.

Let me give people just one, of many reasons why Angus makes sense. As you all probably know, I have a substantial amount of SAV America 8018 semen in my possession which I am already using. Already, based solely on this particular animal, I have the following:

I've been offered so far $1000 per straw on the semen

I have people contacting me privately to reserve bulls from this sire, even though those bulls could be 24 months away.

I have contacted operations in Canada, Uruguay, and Argentina that have interest in purchasing embryos from the daughters of this sire, even further away in the future than the bulls.

I've spoken with a representative from the Midland bull test and we are planning on submitting 5 America sons into the test.

Now each time I post things like this, people come out of the woodwork to dimish everything I say, then I, as always, prove them wrong, which isn't too much effort on my part.

Let's compare a sire like America to the Gelbvieh bull on another thread. He's a nice bull, but do you REALLY think all of those marketing opportunities would present themselves with that bull? Do you think if I had a Longhorn/Charolais mix with a dash of I don't know what breed in there, that any of above would be possible? H.ell no is the answer.

That is why Angus makes TOTAL sense if you are wanting your cattle business to get to the next level.

I'm not doing this as a hobby.
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Re: I don't know what you are all complaining about

Post by Brookhill Angus » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:40 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:12 am
A few Angus breeders are over the top and stir the crap. Then their's other breed pimps that are jealous and stir the crap. Black calves sell better in my market so Angus is a no brainer. I came to the conclusion that it's cow size and not the breed that works for me. Big fat cows fair about as good as big fat people when it's a 100+ degrees and nothing to eat.
If my cattle didn't have anything to eat, I wouldn't own cattle.
"When someone tells you it can't be done, it's more a reflection of their limitations, not yours"

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Re: I don't know what you are all complaining about

Post by TennesseeTuxedo » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:59 pm

Brookhill Angus wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:40 pm
True Grit Farms wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:12 am
A few Angus breeders are over the top and stir the crap. Then their's other breed pimps that are jealous and stir the crap. Black calves sell better in my market so Angus is a no brainer. I came to the conclusion that it's cow size and not the breed that works for me. Big fat cows fair about as good as big fat people when it's a 100+ degrees and nothing to eat.
If my cattle didn't have anything to eat, I wouldn't own cattle.
Careful Brookhill, we're all but one drought away from trouble.
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Re: I don't know what you are all complaining about

Post by sim.-ang.king » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:02 pm

All I ask for is fewer assumptions and more integrity. Shouldn't we all?
Like Ebeneezer pointed out with the AAA's assumptions on foot scores. Never got word from the AAA wanting foot measurements from any of my angus cattle, and I doubt many members did either. So where did their scores come from?

Milk scores are heavily weighted towards WW's, and assumes that calves with high ww without creep feed, come from bulls with cows that made more milk. Ignoring most of the environmental effects, or even milk quality, along with manipulations by the one reporting the data. If you're going to have a milk score, why not base it on lbs/day, and milk fat content like the dairy industry uses?

Utter scores? none existent. But they did add a $M index that has more to do with ce, and ww than anything when you consider that milk is also based mostly on ww.

Those are my thoughts, take it or leave it.
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Re: I don't know what you are all complaining about

Post by Brookhill Angus » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:06 pm

TennesseeTuxedo wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:59 pm
Brookhill Angus wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:40 pm
True Grit Farms wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:12 am
A few Angus breeders are over the top and stir the crap. Then their's other breed pimps that are jealous and stir the crap. Black calves sell better in my market so Angus is a no brainer. I came to the conclusion that it's cow size and not the breed that works for me. Big fat cows fair about as good as big fat people when it's a 100+ degrees and nothing to eat.
If my cattle didn't have anything to eat, I wouldn't own cattle.
Careful Brookhill, we're all but one drought away from trouble.
I will irrigate if I have to. We have city water, and several highly productive wells. Anything for the moos.

Also, I can always call Richnm and send a couple of semi's out to him for some food.
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Re: I don't know what you are all complaining about

Post by jscunn » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:33 pm

They better not offer me $1000 a straw for anything in my tank. It would be gone.

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