Angus Terminal/Maternal

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Angus Terminal/Maternal

Post by CreekAngus » Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:21 pm

Personally, I think the AAA has some big issues at hand and they really don't know how to deal with it. Other than creating new indexes that truly will not correct anything. For some reason there is a mantra going around that Angus are no longer maternal and the herd is heading towards being a terminal breed. I got cows, they raise good calves, breed back, got feet, really good udders and aren't falling apart....isn't that maternal? I have a friend whose got a couple of bulls in the catalogs and he posted the following. .....

Why does breeding cattle that work, I mean truly work for a living need to be so complicated......?? Maybe it is time for the scientists and the computer derived formulas to come spend a calving season in the west, then come back and spend a few weeks during the fall run and shipping season. It’s pretty simple, sort the purebred cattle the same way that your commercial customers sort them. Put em in the alley, and in and by them. No other way, quit making excuses, quit relying on manipulated data. The proof is in the pudding. If she has a calf, bred back on time, has a good udder, adequate body condition to do it again, good feet, etc etc. then she goes by, if not for any of the above reasons she goes in ( hence destined for our vast hamburger market). It’s that simple!!I strongly believe when it’s 10 below zero and a dirty western winter that is the time to talk about maternal. I also believe when it’s been a hot long dry summer in the desert or the mountains and shipping season is upon us it is also the time to judge maternal. They have it or they don’t!


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Re: Angus Terminal/Maternal

Post by Nesikep » Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:24 pm

I think they need a $Blah index that takes good feet, udders, etc and scores that high, and for the rest of it, it scores high if it's average and penalises outliers.... stacked low BW, huge frame scores, etc
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Re: Angus Terminal/Maternal

Post by gcreekrch » Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:51 pm

CreekAngus wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:21 pm
Personally, I think the AAA has some big issues at hand and they really don't know how to deal with it. Other than creating new indexes that truly will not correct anything. For some reason there is a mantra going around that Angus are no longer maternal and the herd is heading towards being a terminal breed. I got cows, they raise good calves, breed back, got feet, really good udders and aren't falling apart....isn't that maternal? I have a friend whose got a couple of bulls in the catalogs and he posted the following. .....

Why does breeding cattle that work, I mean truly work for a living need to be so complicated......?? Maybe it is time for the scientists and the computer derived formulas to come spend a calving season in the west, then come back and spend a few weeks during the fall run and shipping season. It’s pretty simple, sort the purebred cattle the same way that your commercial customers sort them. Put em in the alley, and in and by them. No other way, quit making excuses, quit relying on manipulated data. The proof is in the pudding. If she has a calf, bred back on time, has a good udder, adequate body condition to do it again, good feet, etc etc. then she goes by, if not for any of the above reasons she goes in ( hence destined for our vast hamburger market). It’s that simple!!I strongly believe when it’s 10 below zero and a dirty western winter that is the time to talk about maternal. I also believe when it’s been a hot long dry summer in the desert or the mountains and shipping season is upon us it is also the time to judge maternal. They have it or they don’t!
I agree fully and completely!

Might sort a bunch of them ton cows off for burger though...………………...
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Re: Angus Terminal/Maternal

Post by NEFarmwife » Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:25 pm

Bulls are no longer sold on looks.

I’m for one moment going to “promote” Up N Coming. We know his full brother is Upgrade. We know that Upgrade has had his part in making some wonderful females... we also know that not all full brothers are created equal.

But as a cattleman, my husband knew that Up N Coming was a “female maker”. We used him extensively in our herd. He said time and time again (not receiving a DIME himself, in fact, we PAY full price for a certificate (FYI) because of partners)... you want great udders, feet, and disposition? He’s it. He is maternal. He is a cattleman’s best friend. Quite honestly, those numbers prove his worth. So I feel it’s credible. But I also feel it’s helped because of his full brothers progeny.

Some of these cattle don’t have the dna to stand behind them and I feel, it hurts.

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Re: Angus Terminal/Maternal

Post by Red Bull Breeder » Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:40 pm

NEFarmwife wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:25 pm
Bulls are no longer sold on looks.

I’m for one moment going to “promote” Up N Coming. We know his full brother is Upgrade. We know that Upgrade has had his part in making some wonderful females... we also know that not all full brothers are created equal.

But as a cattleman, my husband knew that Up N Coming was a “female maker”. We used him extensively in our herd. He said time and time again (not receiving a DIME himself, in fact, we PAY full price for a certificate (FYI) because of partners)... you want great udders, feet, and disposition? He’s it. He is maternal. He is a cattleman’s best friend. Quite honestly, those numbers prove his worth. So I feel it’s credible. But I also feel it’s helped because of his full brothers progeny.

Some of these cattle don’t have the dna to stand behind them and I feel, it hurts.
You got heifers calving out of him Yet?

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Re: Angus Terminal/Maternal

Post by NEFarmwife » Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:52 pm

Red Bull Breeder wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:40 pm
NEFarmwife wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:25 pm
Bulls are no longer sold on looks.

I’m for one moment going to “promote” Up N Coming. We know his full brother is Upgrade. We know that Upgrade has had his part in making some wonderful females... we also know that not all full brothers are created equal.

But as a cattleman, my husband knew that Up N Coming was a “female maker”. We used him extensively in our herd. He said time and time again (not receiving a DIME himself, in fact, we PAY full price for a certificate (FYI) because of partners)... you want great udders, feet, and disposition? He’s it. He is maternal. He is a cattleman’s best friend. Quite honestly, those numbers prove his worth. So I feel it’s credible. But I also feel it’s helped because of his full brothers progeny.

Some of these cattle don’t have the dna to stand behind them and I feel, it hurts.
You got heifers calving out of him Yet?
Sure do. Commercial. But I have a PB angus that I’ve bred him to. This girl was from our very first Pb angus. After seeing her first calf (we bought her bred) we wanted to fix her. Hubby said, let’s breed her to UNC. And she was gorgeous. She’s all over my Dodds Cattle FB page. She’s just 20 feet from my house now so if you’d like a video of her, I’d take it (and post on FB for you)

https://www.angus.org/Animal/EpdPedDtl. ... 3ASw%3d%3d

Please click on her wreck of a dam and her outstanding sire. He’s a fixer. Look at his feet too.

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Re: Angus Terminal/Maternal

Post by NEFarmwife » Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:55 pm

NEFarmwife wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:52 pm
Red Bull Breeder wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:40 pm
NEFarmwife wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:25 pm
Bulls are no longer sold on looks.

I’m for one moment going to “promote” Up N Coming. We know his full brother is Upgrade. We know that Upgrade has had his part in making some wonderful females... we also know that not all full brothers are created equal.

But as a cattleman, my husband knew that Up N Coming was a “female maker”. We used him extensively in our herd. He said time and time again (not receiving a DIME himself, in fact, we PAY full price for a certificate (FYI) because of partners)... you want great udders, feet, and disposition? He’s it. He is maternal. He is a cattleman’s best friend. Quite honestly, those numbers prove his worth. So I feel it’s credible. But I also feel it’s helped because of his full brothers progeny.

Some of these cattle don’t have the dna to stand behind them and I feel, it hurts.
You got heifers calving out of him Yet?
Sure do. Commercial. But I have a PB angus that I’ve bred him to. This girl was from our very first Pb angus. After seeing her first calf (we bought her bred) we wanted to fix her. Hubby said, let’s breed her to UNC. And she was gorgeous. She’s all over my Dodds Cattle FB page. She’s just 20 feet from my house now so if you’d like a video of her, I’d take it (and post on FB for you)

https://www.angus.org/Animal/EpdPedDtl. ... 3ASw%3d%3d

Please click on her wreck of a dam and her outstanding sire. He’s a fixer. Look at his feet too.
Our commercial herd has been bred time and time and to him. But PB angus, all I have is pB heifers that have been bred. This particular girl above is now bred to Hickok.

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Re: Angus Terminal/Maternal

Post by Red Bull Breeder » Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:03 pm

None of the names mean a thing to me. As angus are not my deal. As for proven you have more of a start with him than America has. Proven bulls to me they have heifers and bull in production. Any thing less than that is speculation.

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Re: Angus Terminal/Maternal

Post by NEFarmwife » Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:22 pm

Red Bull Breeder wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:03 pm
None of the names mean a thing to me. As angus are not my deal. As for proven you have more of a start with him than America has. Proven bulls to me they have heifers and bull in production. Any thing less than that is speculation.
You are right. But you know people who know people in this area and I can assure you, they’ll give accolades to this bull from a commercial standpoint. He should set the bar for replacements, honestly.

If you looked up his brother, he’s in some of the best pedigrees there are. Our flush brother was marketed poorly and given to every cattleman within a 400 mile radius. Cattlemen as you know, do nothing with EPDs.

If Creek came thru on way to Deer Valley and had a semen tank with him, I’d send him with semen. If he were interested.

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Re: Angus Terminal/Maternal

Post by cow pollinater » Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:34 pm

I think Angus has turned into more of a gentleman farmers who's who club than a business breed in some ways, especially East of I35. I'm not in any way saying that there aren't good Angus cattle and breeders out there but it seems like what I see lately is part timers chasing numbers and making matings from a computer screen in their down time. It's a hobby that they get to write off on their taxes. If we were all ranchers for a living there wouldn't be a market for some of the extremes that we see because they don't work unless you plan to lose money or break even and people that do it for a living can't do that.
I can't tell you how many people I've bred cows for that need the cattle to work for them that I've suggested mid range bulls to that I've used somewhere along the way so I know they work. And yet they'll insist on using the latest greatest and then be upset with the results.
It really isn't complicated. Kill anything that doesn't work. If it kind of works but not the way you want tear the papers up and make a commercial cow.

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Re: Angus Terminal/Maternal

Post by CreekAngus » Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:00 pm

gcreekrch wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:51 pm
CreekAngus wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:21 pm
Personally, I think the AAA has some big issues at hand and they really don't know how to deal with it. Other than creating new indexes that truly will not correct anything. For some reason there is a mantra going around that Angus are no longer maternal and the herd is heading towards being a terminal breed. I got cows, they raise good calves, breed back, got feet, really good udders and aren't falling apart....isn't that maternal? I have a friend whose got a couple of bulls in the catalogs and he posted the following. .....


Might sort a bunch of them ton cows off for burger though...………………...
The 1 ton cow is one of the things he and I talked about this afternoon, there is no practical function for a cow that big in most environments (note: environment). And typically the bigger frame you go, the more breakdowns you have and the more they quit being functional angus. That isn’t true of every herd or program, but what we are seeing is folks breeding by the numbers, chasing the $B. We know of outfits dragging out weaning dates, putting et calves on milking angus to push the numbers and often times these bulls are not functional nor are the progeny. More breeders need to pursue cattle that function for their environment and customers. A guy in Kentucky may be able to handle a one ton, because he’s got the forage and his customer base wants that product and for him a ton is maternal. I don’t see the $M or foot epd’s changing a thing for me. I will continue to use bulls that I believe have an outstanding maternal back ground. I only use three or four epd’s in my selections, primarily it’s word of mouth and what I’ve seen on the ground.
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Re: Angus Terminal/Maternal

Post by CreekAngus » Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:09 pm

NEFarmwife wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:22 pm
Red Bull Breeder wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:03 pm
None of the names mean a thing to me. As angus are not my deal. As for proven you have more of a start with him than America has. Proven bulls to me they have heifers and bull in production. Any thing less than that is speculation.
You are right. But you know people who know people in this area and I can assure you, they’ll give accolades to this bull from a commercial standpoint. He should set the bar for replacements, honestly.

If you looked up his brother, he’s in some of the best pedigrees there are. Our flush brother was marketed poorly and given to every cattleman within a 400 mile radius. Cattlemen as you know, do nothing with EPDs.

If Creek came thru on way to Deer Valley and had a semen tank with him, I’d send him with semen. If he were interested.
I like your offer, but I run a micro herd (six) and I have set up my program for the next four years already. Running this few, it takes a long time to run through a cane of semen. My bulls this year are War Party and Chisum, next year Emulation V910 and War Party (two years of that)....but no one cares. Maybe some day when I have 20, we can talk. Back when I had a real herd, I was a semen collector, had some 004, New Day, Lead On, Danny Boy, 1407 and VRD. The neighbor bought my tank from the ex-wife and still has it all.
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Re: Angus Terminal/Maternal

Post by True Grit Farms » Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:26 am

cow pollinater wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:34 pm
I think Angus has turned into more of a gentleman farmers who's who club than a business breed in some ways, especially East of I35. I'm not in any way saying that there aren't good Angus cattle and breeders out there but it seems like what I see lately is part timers chasing numbers and making matings from a computer screen in their down time. It's a hobby that they get to write off on their taxes. If we were all ranchers for a living there wouldn't be a market for some of the extremes that we see because they don't work unless you plan to lose money or break even and people that do it for a living can't do that.
I can't tell you how many people I've bred cows for that need the cattle to work for them that I've suggested mid range bulls to that I've used somewhere along the way so I know they work. And yet they'll insist on using the latest greatest and then be upset with the results.
It really isn't complicated. Kill anything that doesn't work. If it kind of works but not the way you want tear the papers up and make a commercial cow.
I believe you nailed it CP. :tiphat:
If we'd of know this we'd of picked our own cotton.

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Re: Angus Terminal/Maternal

Post by Bright Raven » Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:31 am

CreekAngus wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:21 pm
Personally, I think the AAA has some big issues at hand and they really don't know how to deal with it. Other than creating new indexes that truly will not correct anything. For some reason there is a mantra going around that Angus are no longer maternal and the herd is heading towards being a terminal breed. I got cows, they raise good calves, breed back, got feet, really good udders and aren't falling apart....isn't that maternal? I have a friend whose got a couple of bulls in the catalogs and he posted the following. .....

Why does breeding cattle that work, I mean truly work for a living need to be so complicated......?? Maybe it is time for the scientists and the computer derived formulas to come spend a calving season in the west, then come back and spend a few weeks during the fall run and shipping season. It’s pretty simple, sort the purebred cattle the same way that your commercial customers sort them. Put em in the alley, and in and by them. No other way, quit making excuses, quit relying on manipulated data. The proof is in the pudding. If she has a calf, bred back on time, has a good udder, adequate body condition to do it again, good feet, etc etc. then she goes by, if not for any of the above reasons she goes in ( hence destined for our vast hamburger market). It’s that simple!!I strongly believe when it’s 10 below zero and a dirty western winter that is the time to talk about maternal. I also believe when it’s been a hot long dry summer in the desert or the mountains and shipping season is upon us it is also the time to judge maternal. They have it or they don’t!
How is it the fault of the AAA that Producers DO or DO NOT follow the practices outlined by your friend?

Now, maybe that is not what you are implying in which case my question is irrelevant. But you start out with a lead statement that the AAA has a problem. Then you provide your friends statement. Thus, one follows the other and a reader might assume that if a producer does not follow the practices outlined by your friend that it is the AAA's fault.

Please shed some light on that. Thank you sir.
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Diogenes.

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Re: Angus Terminal/Maternal

Post by Red Bull Breeder » Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:41 am

BR AAA like about all breed assocations have pushed bigger better faster for quite a while.

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